Girl, your washing your perm out....

[Lotus]

I'm sooo confused. I dont perm often, but when I do it seems as if my roots revert after about 1 1/2 weeks of Co-washes. I know it's not supposed to be possible (chemical alteration), but what gives. Does this happen to anyone else?

I mentioned my problem to my cousin. She said after she relaxes, she doenst wash for 1 week, cuz she doenst want to "wash her perm out".

your (ooops)= you're

 

[karezone]

some people experience reversion if they wash too soon after a relaxer or if they use a protein conditioner too soon. I think that most people wait at least 3 days, at least I do.

 

[Angelicus]

Well having undeprocessed hair is better than having overprocessed hair. And yes, it is possible for hair to revert with hard protein after a relaxer, but I don't know about just Co-washing. That's why I think underprocessing is the culprit.

And please don't listen to your cousin about hair

 

[Lotus]

And please don't listen to your cousin about hair

Thanks! Do ya'll think I should manipulate more, leave the relaxer on longer or wait longer before I con-wash- Elucence? I use ORS like once a year or when I have an important engagement and want a straight look w/out a mini afro- . After my relaxer (for about a week and a half), my hair is bone straight... wont hold curl unless I wet set. Then I'm back to poof ball.

@ Anky- Been stalking your hair album for a while- . Your hair is lovely. Your skin is beauTiful and your weightloss pictures are encouraging. Continue to be a blessing. Let him use ya gyrl!

 

[lexi84]

Copying and pasting from another web site...these are Sistaslick's words. I hope she doesnt mind

ITA w/ anky on the moisturizing. Hair typically needs moisture and protein following a relaxer, and right now uour hair sounds like it needs more moisturizing deep conditioning than the protein conditioning. Listen to how your own hair feels to determine what to do. My hair typically requires more protein following the relaxer to replace the protein lost to the relaxing process, and I've never experienced reversion due to protein. Everyone has different needs at different times though.

Anky, you said something that interests me, though. Anky, if you dont mind-- can you explain to me how protein reversion is possible? I've heard a few people mention this, and I never fully understood how it was possible. Help a sista out Brace yourself... Here are my questions

If reversion is a permanent process, and the effects of protein treatments are only temporary solutions/fixes. . . wouldn't that mean you could simply wash away any protein induced reversion over time? Relaxers permanently break the sulfide bonds in the cortex of the hair to straighten it-- how would proteins be able to relift the cuticle to the point where it would be able to reach the cortex again and rebond broken bonds to produce reversion? I know that proteins- even the smallest ones only act (fill weak spots) on the cuticle layers of the hair-- they would need to penetrate to the cortex to create reversion and only a few products have a high enough pH to breach the 6-10 cuticle layers to that degree (relaxers and permanent colors). Also, I am wondering about the professional relaxers like Affirm that come with protein treatments that go on immediately after the relaxer is rinsed and before the neutralizer. The cuticle is open as high as its ever going to get at this point--wouldn't introducing protein at this time result in massive reversion immediately? I don't see why companies would add this step if protein could rebond the permanently broken bonds of relaxing. If proteins had the power to rebond and revert fully relaxed hair, wouldn't you simply be able to do a hard core protein following a relaxer to go back from relaxed to natural? Underprocessed hair usually takes a wash or two to show itself. Could it be that the reversion is connected with the use of protein because it often isn’t discovered until the hair has been washed for the first time after the relaxer? Sorry about all the questions-- just tryin to pick your brain a little

 

[myco]

Copying and pasting from another web site...these are Sistaslick's words. I hope she doesnt mind

ITA w/ anky on the moisturizing. Hair typically needs moisture and protein following a relaxer, and right now uour hair sounds like it needs more moisturizing deep conditioning than the protein conditioning. Listen to how your own hair feels to determine what to do. My hair typically requires more protein following the relaxer to replace the protein lost to the relaxing process, and I've never experienced reversion due to protein. Everyone has different needs at different times though.

Anky, you said something that interests me, though. Anky, if you dont mind-- can you explain to me how protein reversion is possible? I've heard a few people mention this, and I never fully understood how it was possible. Help a sista out Brace yourself... Here are my questions

If reversion is a permanent process, and the effects of protein treatments are only temporary solutions/fixes. . . wouldn't that mean you could simply wash away any protein induced reversion over time? Relaxers permanently break the sulfide bonds in the cortex of the hair to straighten it-- how would proteins be able to relift the cuticle to the point where it would be able to reach the cortex again and rebond broken bonds to produce reversion? I know that proteins- even the smallest ones only act (fill weak spots) on the cuticle layers of the hair-- they would need to penetrate to the cortex to create reversion and only a few products have a high enough pH to breach the 6-10 cuticle layers to that degree (relaxers and permanent colors). Also, I am wondering about the professional relaxers like Affirm that come with protein treatments that go on immediately after the relaxer is rinsed and before the neutralizer. The cuticle is open as high as its ever going to get at this point--wouldn't introducing protein at this time result in massive reversion immediately? I don't see why companies would add this step if protein could rebond the permanently broken bonds of relaxing. If proteins had the power to rebond and revert fully relaxed hair, wouldn't you simply be able to do a hard core protein following a relaxer to go back from relaxed to natural? Underprocessed hair usually takes a wash or two to show itself. Could it be that the reversion is connected with the use of protein because it often isn’t discovered until the hair has been washed for the first time after the relaxer? Sorry about all the questions-- just tryin to pick your brain a little

I agree with the part you highlighted. I don't think that the hair is reverting, I think after washing 1 or 2 times, you are seeing just how "relaxed" your hair was to begin with. The sooner that I see that, the better for me because I see it as my hair retaining it's resiliency and not being overprocessed.

 

[Supergirl]

I am one that believes that washing too soon or using a "hard" protein too soon after a relaxer can revert a lye relaxer for sure. I don't know about the no-lyes. I've read that conditioning treatments don't "get in" as well with no-lye relaxed hair anyway, so that could be why they don't have this problem.

 

[Sistaslick]

I am one that believes that washing too soon or using a "hard" protein too soon after a relaxer can revert a lye relaxer for sure. I don't know about the no-lyes. I've read that conditioning treatments don't "get in" as well with no-lye relaxed hair anyway, so that could be why they don't have this problem.

This is what confuses me though-- When I used lye relaxers, I never had this problem with protein. Switching to no lye, still nothing. In fact, the lye formulations (professional) are the main ones that come with protein conditioning treatments following the rinsing of the relaxer. If protein induced reversion were in fact going on, why would companies include this step at all- especially after such a crucial step as after the relaxer is rinsed? Seems like it would be counter productive. The cuticles are raised as high as they will ever be at that point--if something is going to get in and start reforming bonds, seems like that would be the time to do it.

Also, I have contacted the product chemists at several companies--- Aphogee, Avlon (Affirm), Motions/Nexxus and some others about this and no one has ever been able to corrorborate the protein= reversion theory. No one. The people at Aphogee (the makers of one of the heaviest protein formulations out there) explained to me that the pH of their hardcore threatment is 3-- the same as a ACV rinse. For something to breach all of the cuticles layers to reach the cortex of the hair shaft, it would have to have a pretty significant pH-- something alkaline like a relaxer or permanent color. The pH of the this formula itself makes it very unlikely that it will be able to reach the cortex . . .and then rebuild supposedly permanently broken sulfide bonds? It seems like it would help close the cuticles if anything don't you think?

These treatments only reinforce the damaged cuticle layers of the shaft giving the hair added strength--- and since the aphogee proteins are hydrolized, they are able to penetrate the layers deeply. They do not, however act on the sulfide bonds within the cortex of the hair. The Aphogee folks say you can use the hardcore aphogee as soon as 24 hours after the relaxer to help rebuild overprocessed hair-- and the only reason you can't use it sooner is because of the irritation from the heat you'd have to use with it, not reversion. And we all know that protein treatments don't last forever, they're only temporary fixes . . . wouldn't you be able to simply wash away your reversion as the protein begins to lose its effect? :scratchch

During my correspondence, I beleive it was the Motions/Nexxus people that stated that it is the hydrogen rebonding after introducing water to relaxed hair that "reverts" it-- not protein or anything else. And this will only happen if there has been improper bond breakage in the first place. I don't think there is a 'washing too soon"--- if your relaxer did not fully break the appropriate bonds your hair will revert no matter when or what you wash it with next. That could be the next day or 3 months later. Sorry to get all rambly and longwinded. This particular topic is very exciting to me for some reason, and reading your protein thread back in the day SG really got me thinking. I am genuinely interested in hearing other opinions on this. I think a good laptop break is in order for me now though.

 

[MizaniMami]

This is what confuses me though-- When I used lye relaxers, I never had this problem with protein. Switching to no lye, still nothing. In fact, the lye formulations (professional) are the main ones that come with protein conditioning treatments following the rinsing of the relaxer. If protein induced reversion were in fact going on, why would companies include this step at all- especially after such a crucial step as after the relaxer is rinsed? Seems like it would be counter productive. The cuticles are raised as high as they will ever be at that point--if something is going to get in and start reforming bonds, seems like that would be the time to do it.

Also, I have contacted the product chemists at several companies--- Aphogee, Avlon (Affirm), Motions/Nexxus and some others about this and no one has ever been able to corrorborate the protein= reversion theory. No one. The people at Aphogee (the makers of one of the heaviest protein formulations out there) explained to me that the pH of their hardcore threatment is 3-- the same as a ACV rinse. For something to breach all of the cuticles layers to reach the cortex of the hair shaft, it would have to have a pretty significant pH-- something alkaline like a relaxer or permanent color. The pH of the this formula itself makes it very unlikely that it will be able to reach the cortex . . .and then rebuild supposedly permanently broken sulfide bonds? It seems like it would help close the cuticles if anything don't you think?

These treatments only reinforce the damaged cuticle layers of the shaft giving the hair added strength--- and since the aphogee proteins are hydrolized, they are able to penetrate the layers deeply. They do not, however act on the sulfide bonds within the cortex of the hair. The Aphogee folks say you can use the hardcore aphogee as soon as 24 hours after the relaxer to help rebuild overprocessed hair-- and the only reason you can't use it sooner is because of the irritation from the heat you'd have to use with it, not reversion. And we all know that protein treatments don't last forever, they're only temporary fixes . . . wouldn't you be able to simply wash away your reversion as the protein begins to lose its effect? :scratchch

During my correspondence, I beleive it was the Motions/Nexxus people that stated that it is the hydrogen rebonding after introducing water to relaxed hair that "reverts" it-- not protein or anything else. And this will only happen if there has been improper bond breakage in the first place. I don't think there is a 'washing too soon"--- if your relaxer did not fully break the appropriate bonds your hair will revert no matter when or what you wash it with next. That could be the next day or 3 months later. Sorry to get all rambly and longwinded. This particular topic is very exciting to me for some reason, and reading your protein thread back in the day SG really got me thinking. I am genuinely interested in hearing other opinions on this. I think a good laptop break is in order for me now though.

This is why I love this woman She is phenomenal!

 

[Supergirl]

This is what confuses me though-- When I used lye relaxers, I never had this problem with protein. Switching to no lye, still nothing. In fact, the lye formulations (professional) are the main ones that come with protein conditioning treatments following the rinsing of the relaxer. If protein induced reversion were in fact going on, why would companies include this step at all- especially after such a crucial step as after the relaxer is rinsed? Seems like it would be counter productive. The cuticles are raised as high as they will ever be at that point--if something is going to get in and start reforming bonds, seems like that would be the time to do it.

Also, I have contacted the product chemists at several companies--- Aphogee, Avlon (Affirm), Motions/Nexxus and some others about this and no one has ever been able to corrorborate the protein= reversion theory. No one. The people at Aphogee (the makers of one of the heaviest protein formulations out there) explained to me that the pH of their hardcore threatment is 3-- the same as a ACV rinse. For something to breach all of the cuticles layers to reach the cortex of the hair shaft, it would have to have a pretty significant pH-- something alkaline like a relaxer or permanent color. The pH of the this formula itself makes it very unlikely that it will be able to reach the cortex . . .and then rebuild supposedly permanently broken sulfide bonds? It seems like it would help close the cuticles if anything don't you think?

These treatments only reinforce the damaged cuticle layers of the shaft giving the hair added strength--- and since the aphogee proteins are hydrolized, they are able to penetrate the layers deeply. They do not, however act on the sulfide bonds within the cortex of the hair. The Aphogee folks say you can use the hardcore aphogee as soon as 24 hours after the relaxer to help rebuild overprocessed hair-- and the only reason you can't use it sooner is because of the irritation from the heat you'd have to use with it, not reversion. And we all know that protein treatments don't last forever, they're only temporary fixes . . . wouldn't you be able to simply wash away your reversion as the protein begins to lose its effect? :scratchch

During my correspondence, I beleive it was the Motions/Nexxus people that stated that it is the hydrogen rebonding after introducing water to relaxed hair that "reverts" it-- not protein or anything else. And this will only happen if there has been improper bond breakage in the first place. I don't think there is a 'washing too soon"--- if your relaxer did not fully break the appropriate bonds your hair will revert no matter when or what you wash it with next. That could be the next day or 3 months later. Sorry to get all rambly and longwinded. This particular topic is very exciting to me for some reason, and reading your protein thread back in the day SG really got me thinking. I am genuinely interested in hearing other opinions on this. I think a good laptop break is in order for me now though.

While this is true, you will NOT EVER find a lye relaxer system that includes a keratin protein conditioner for use immediately after the relaxer.

Also, having been a Chemistry minor in undergrad, I know that relaxers do break disulfide bonds but that during the neutralizing process those bonds are reformed, but in a weaker state. So contrary to popular belief, the disulfide bonds are not permanently broken, however they're permanently weakened.

 

[Sistaslick]

While this is true, you will NOT EVER find a lye relaxer system that includes a keratin protein conditioner for use immediately after the relaxer. .

But is reversion the reason why they don't-- or are you speculating? It may purely be coincidence! I’m still trying to understand how a protein, keratin or otherwise, working on the cuticle layers of the hair will have any bearing on the turn out of the sulfide bonds within the cortex of the hair. Whether after a relaxer is rinsed days, weeks, or months later. Again with protein treatments being temporary, why isn’t it that this “reversion” reversible after the protein has worn off ? And if hydrolized keratin or any other protein were small enough to breach and penetrate the layers, why isn't using them a constant threat for reversion for relaxed heads all the time? Wouldn't we see reversion along the shaft and ends months and years later use after use? I promise, I am not trying to be a pest.

Also, having been a Chemistry minor in undergrad, I know that relaxers do break disulfide bonds but that during the neutralizing process those bonds are reformed, but in a weaker state. So contrary to popular belief, the disulfide bonds are not permanently broken, however they're permanently weakened.

Well, I don't have a chemistry degree . . .yet So, I'm listening hard to ya. I do totally agree with this. Relaxers do break the disulfide bonds—and it is the smoothing process that actually straightens the hair in the end. Neutralizing “freezes” the hair into this new, weaker straighter state. When I said the disulfide bonds were “permanently broken,” I meant that they would never ever be able to reach that same particular configuration that they had before the chemical action took place. True, they are reformed in a weaker straighter state with the neutralizer. They will still never go back to the way they were before you applied the chemical. That would be permanently broken. But what you are saying is that a strong protein treatment (keratin or otherwise) will somehow

1.) reopen the cuticles layers as the relaxer and lift them to the point where the product can
2.) penetrate to the cortex as the relaxer does
3.) undo the permanent weak (straight) bonding we’ve established with the smoothing and neutralizing
4.) and reform the sulfide bonds back into a curly state.

I mean getting to the cortex is difficult. The very fine color molecules in a permanent dye formulation can’t even do this without a strong alkaline force harshly lifting and breaching the cuticle layers. Lifting cuticle layers to this degree damages the hair in the end. This part is what doesn’t make sense to me- especially once you take into consideration the extremely low- normalizing pH’s of these products. Or maybe I’m just not getting the picture. Just trying to gain a little clarity.

 

[secretdiamond]

Ummmmm..... yeah.... ^^^^what she said.

 

[MizaniMami]

But is reversion the reason why they don't-- or are you speculating? It may purely be coincidence! I’m still trying to understand how a protein, keratin or otherwise, working on the cuticle layers of the hair will have any bearing on the turn out of the sulfide bonds within the cortex of the hair. Whether after a relaxer is rinsed days, weeks, or months later. Again with protein treatments being temporary, why isn’t it that this “reversion” reversible after the protein has worn off ? And if hydrolized keratin or any other protein were small enough to breach and penetrate the layers, why isn't using them a constant threat for reversion for relaxed heads all the time? Wouldn't we see reversion along the shaft and ends months and years later use after use? I promise, I am not trying to be a pest.




Well, I don't have a chemistry degree . . .yet So, I'm listening hard to ya. I do totally agree with this. Relaxers do break the disulfide bonds—and it is the smoothing process that actually straightens the hair in the end. Neutralizing “freezes” the hair into this new, weaker straighter state. When I said the disulfide bonds were “permanently broken,” I meant that they would never ever be able to reach that same particular configuration that they had before the chemical action took place. True, they are reformed in a weaker straighter state with the neutralizer. They will still never go back to the way they were before you applied the chemical. That would be permanently broken. But what you are saying is that a strong protein treatment (keratin or otherwise) will somehow

1.) reopen the cuticles layers as the relaxer and lift them to the point where the product can
2.) penetrate to the cortex as the relaxer does
3.) undo the permanent weak (straight) bonding we’ve established with the smoothing and neutralizing
4.) and reform the sulfide bonds back into a curly state.

I mean getting to the cortex is difficult. The very fine color molecules in a permanent dye formulation can’t even do this without a strong alkaline force harshly lifting and breaching the cuticle layers. Lifting cuticle layers to this degree damages the hair in the end. This part is what doesn’t make sense to me- especially once you take into consideration the extremely low- normalizing pH’s of these products. Or maybe I’m just not getting the picture. Just trying to gain a little clarity.

Kinda along this topic,

I have used nexxus emergencee a few during my relaxing procress, with LOVELY results.

Are you saying that I can return to doing that? Followed by a moisturizing treatment of course. Or should I just stick with a light protein?

 

[Denim And Leather]

This is why I love this woman She is phenomenal!

I totally agree! I was sitting here like this as I read Dr. Sistaslick's latest hair lesson.

 

[Sistaslick]

Kinda along this topic,

I have used nexxus emergencee a few during my relaxing procress, with LOVELY results.

Are you saying that I can return to doing that? Followed by a moisturizing treatment of course. Or should I just stick with a light protein?

I just think protein in general has gotten a bum wrap as far as relaxing goes. Relaxers cannot be reversed, plain and simple. If proteins of any type, size, or strength could manage this feat of penetrating through several layers of cuticle, breaking, and reforming permanently broken/or newly formed weakened cortical bonds there would be no need for transitioning and BC'ing to get our natural curls back. Then there are the low pH's to contend with. If it were true, you could just do a heavy protein treatment after your relaxer and be back to square one again.

I'm not saying do anything special. Just give your hair what it wants when it wants it and you can't lose. We are all different. Some people need heavier protein conditioning after a relaxer, and some don't. You have to do you.

 

[Supergirl]

Kinda along this topic,

I have used nexxus emergencee a few during my relaxing procress, with LOVELY results.

Are you saying that I can return to doing that? Followed by a moisturizing treatment of course. Or should I just stick with a light protein?

I'm not super familiar with Emergencee but if I remember correctly, the main protein in it is collagen protein which puts it on the "safe" list for conditioners that can be used shortly after relaxing.

 

[secretdiamond]

Oh this is wonderful! Now I can go back to using Emergencee when I get my relaxer too.

 

[MizaniMami]

Oh this is wonderful! Now I can go back to using Emergencee when I get my relaxer too.

So you used it when relaxing also? I thought I was the only one!

Thanks Supergirl and Sistaslick. I think I just may go back!

 

[Supergirl]

SS,

I know you are not being a pest. I think that this topic might in fact make for a wonderful section in your book. And you're right, I am speculating on this. I made this discovery for myself quite by accident. The only "pat" answer I've gotten on it was from my (now former) hairstylist. I noticed the reversion after using Joico K-Pak a few days after relaxing. Then my "chemical mind" began to hypothesize after my hair reverted. It did not revert all the way back to it's 100% unrelaxed state, but nevertheless it did revert. K-Pak contains hydrolyzed human hair keratin. I don't have to tell you what hydrolyzed means since you have a degree in Chemistry. (one of my favorite subjects!)

Joico is the only company that goes as far as to put the molecular weight of the proteins on the product showing that they are penetrable. Not to say they go to the cortical layer (I don't know) but we know that a little heat, body heat, hooded dryer heat, or otherwise slightly lift the cuticle and allow product in.

Anyway, after this experience I told my stylist about the reversion and what I thought I'd done to cause the reversion and she firmly replied "Oh no! You never use anything like that on your hair until about 2 weeks after your relaxer." She's credible IMO. While she did burn the mess out of hair on my last visit, she's proven to me over the last 3 years that she knows her stuff.

After further research, I learned that the relaxer manufacturers don't include these keratin conditioners in their relaxer programs. And in reading Shamboosie, I learned that once a no-lye relaxer is applied it locks the hair into place and the hair will not receive conditioning treatments well, nor will it be able to take a corrective relaxer*. It's "locked" in. But Shamboosie says that lye relaxers are not so "locking." The hair is more susceptible to conditioning treatments and to corrective relaxers*. This information, to me, supported my original thoughts.

*(corrective relaxer in the case of underprocessing)

So, SS do you believe in relaxer reversion at all and if so what do you believe causes it?

I have another theory too about reversion. (I can only speak for lye relaxers on this too--I have not had a no-lye since 2000) I think that wetting the hair too soon after the lye relaxer causes reversion. I used to wait 2 weeks after relaxing to shampoo and condition at home. ('cause my hair would be so laid, I didn't want to mess up my style) But that was before joining LHCF. So in 2 weeks, I'd shampoo and go on about my business, no problem. But after joining LHCF and becoming healthy hair happy, I'd shampoo and condition 3-4 days after relaxing. I'd get reversion--even without using a heavy protein, after I discovered that. So I started waiting a week and not having any problems.

I know that with curly perms, one is to wait 72 hours before washing the hair. So if the results of the ammonium thioglycolate perm can be altered days after the procedure, but not weeks after the procedure then how come the same cannot be true for sodium hydroxide? I'm not being a pest either.

 

[Bublnbrnsuga]

Tell your cousin you are supposed to wash out your perm. If you didn't you wouldn't have any hair!

 

[Sistaslick]

SS,
I made this discovery for myself quite by accident. The only "pat" answer I've gotten on it was from my (now former) hairstylist. I noticed the reversion after using Joico K-Pak a few days after relaxing. Then my "chemical mind" began to hypothesize after my hair reverted. It did not revert all the way back to it's 100% unrelaxed state, but nevertheless it did revert. K-Pak contains hydrolyzed human hair keratin. I don't have to tell you what hydrolyzed means since you have a degree in Chemistry. (one of my favorite subjects!)

Girl, I wish I had a degree in chemistry! I am an American Chemical Society scholar though (shout out to the Rice ACS chapter and Mr. Hughes) . . . so almost

So, SS do you believe in relaxer reversion at all and if so what do you believe causes it?

I believe reversion can and does happen in a sense—but I don’t believe that wetting or protein replacement causes it. Reversion is simply improper sulfide bond breakage from the initial relaxer that begins to show itself over time. It doesn’t matter when, or what you wash you hair with at that following the relaxer—if the bonds have not been sufficiently broken, your hair will appear to “revert.” When I say revert, I mean return to the level of initial bond breakage (or curl level) the relaxer left you with. If your hair was relaxed 100% and all appropriate bonds broken, you would see no ‘reversion’ at all. There would simply be nothing to revert to. But if your hair only experienced say 90% proper bond breakage, even though your hair appears to be a swinging, bouncing, shining 100% bond broken head of bone straight hair, that first wash (and subsequent others) is going to reveal your true 90% degree of straightness. Your hair will not go back any further than your initial degree of bond breakage. This sounds like what happened to you at the salon. Joico and the other much stronger treatments like aphogee are all still temporary fixes. They shore up weak spots and damage on the cuticle which is why they don’t last forever. If even a treatment with the most miniscule human keratin protein complex could act on the cortical layer- their effects would be permanent and you would only need to do them once… and maybe touch up the newgrowth. I am weary of any product claiming it "gets to the core"-- being a consumer, you'd never ever know the truth behind it no matter how many figures they list on the bottle.

Now the water part is interesting. I agree with you on the wetting part, and the chemists at Alberto Culver confirmed that. They told me that relaxers destroy hydrogen bonds in the cortex along with disulfide bonds and it’s the hydrogen rebonding after introducing water to relaxed hair that makes it appear to "revert"--- but this only happens if there is improper disulfide bond breakage in the first place. In the relaxing process, hydrogen bonds can be reformed, but disulfide bonds can not. The hydrogen isn’t somehow going in and reforming the new straightened, weakened (disulfide) bonds to reproduce texture. The kink is still there, just temporarily smoothed. I think the water actually stabilizes your hair, and helps it return to normal inside (hydrogen bond wise) . . . and in doing so helps reveal your true level of disulfide breakage. But this is just me speculating too-- I'm sure there's alot more to it than that.

I really don’t think there is a “wetting too soon” though. If bond breakage is there, it is there. The bonds are already broken/weakened in the relaxing process once you've neutralized. There is no waiting for bonds to reform after the process is complete like you would for a curly perm. Now if you want your hair to remain in the straighter state longer, before you discover just how well your sulfide bonds were broken then yes hold off on a wash. If 100% of those bonds were broken, nothing will happen. If 70% were broken, you are in for a treat! But your true level of bond breakage is going to reveal itself eventually—whether you wash that day or 4 months from then. Hair with 100% broken bondage will never go back, no matter what you do. I’ve left the salon many times with hair that was bone straight—not a kink in sight. Until I got home and washed it. I honestly believe that you cannot gauge the true success of a relaxer until after a few washes. This is when the true relaxed hair pattern emerges. But rebonding the hydrogen bonds does not affect your disulfide bonds or take you any further reversion wise than your disulfide bond breakage will allow- which is why you cannot “wash out” a relaxer. If even one or two disulfide bonds breaks- you’ll never get them back.

My hair is texlaxed, but you would never know it week one after the relaxer. It is after I have washed and dried it a few times that my pattern emerges. I know that my hair is not really relaxed bone straight, though it appears so. With all the precautions and oils and bases I load up on—there is no way my hair can come out bone straight. So I enjoy it for like a week, and then comes the drama. I really haven’t had the chance to really explore and internalize the ins and outs of where the hydrogen bonding issue fits into this though. The true mechanisms behind how simply wetting the hair brings out the true degree of “relaxed-ness” in and of itself fascinates me. And that means I need to get out more. They are still separate processes, and seem to work in tandem.

I have another theory too about reversion. (I can only speak for lye relaxers on this too--I have not had a no-lye since 2000) I think that wetting the hair too soon after the lye relaxer causes reversion. I used to wait 2 weeks after relaxing to shampoo and condition at home. ('cause my hair would be so laid, I didn't want to mess up my style) But that was before joining LHCF. So in 2 weeks, I'd shampoo and go on about my business, no problem. But after joining LHCF and becoming healthy hair happy, I'd shampoo and condition 3-4 days after relaxing. I'd get reversion--even without using a heavy protein, after I discovered that. So I started waiting a week and not having any problems.

You also have to keep in mind that each relaxing experience is different and independent of the others. One touch up may yield 80% bond breakage while the subsequent one yields 100%-- its hard to say what going 2 weeks before the wash or going 3 days will do in either case because we have no way of knowing the degree of bond breakage until we wash. It is very hard to compare. It may be that you new, healthier LHCF cared for newgrowth was stronger and less resistant to your chemicals. Or like me, the base started getting heavier and heavier. On Shamboosie, I have never experienced the horrors of no lye relaxing nor have I seen or read any other evidence supporting his "locking" claims. Perhaps he meant a lye relaxer can be further broken down bond wise (corrected)-- I'm sure he didn't mean you could just put them back together again.

I know that with curly perms, one is to wait 72 hours before washing the hair. So if the results of the ammonium thioglycolate perm can be altered days after the procedure, but not weeks after the procedure then how come the same cannot be true for sodium hydroxide? I'm not being a pest either.

I am not too keen on curly perms, girl. I know they are a totally different chemical and work on the hair in a totally different way than sodium hydroxide or no lye relaxers do, rendering the two processes incompatible. From what I've found, in a thio perm, the hydrogen and disulfide bonds are broken just like with a relaxer--- but the disulfide bonds are physically reformed again with the help of the rollers and time. I’m thinking adding water at this point would affect the hydrogen and disulfide bonding and disrupt the hair from settling into its new curly state. I read that in these kinds of perms, the new curl pattern is actually held in place by the hydrogen bonds in the hair temporarily-- until the disulfide bonds completely reharden and reform. This seems to be why there is a waiting period. If you wash your hair and break up the hydrogen bonding before the permanent disulfide bonding kicks in—you’ll jack up the curl. In a relaxer, you aren't waiting for bonds to be reformed b/c their breakage is what you are after. Hey SG, thanks the super intelligent discourse girl There is still so much to learn about all of these processes and its nice to see we are all taking steps to get a better understanding. Gotta love hair care girls and God bless the people who are reading through these winded posts!

 

[Supergirl]

SS,

I appreciate the information you've provided but there's no denying what has happened on this here head. Since I've stopped "hardcoring" so soon after my relaxer and since I've started waiting at least a week to shampoo and condition at home after a relaxer, I've experienced zero reversion. Hey, I'm happy about that. You could always "experiment" with your hair since this is a topic of interest to you. Let's say 2 days after a lye relaxer, I double-dog dare you to put the most hydrolyzed human hair keratin conditioner you can find in your hair! It will make for good research for your book.

Now, on a lighter slightly off topic note (so that others will understand that we ARE having intelligent discourse and not 'beefing') I did have a dream that you and Tishee came over to help me self relax. So, if that really did happen, what kind of protein would you use on my hair after the relaxer? Just kidding!

 

[Sistaslick]

alright SG, alright. I'm sticking to my story though. In all hair things, you gotta do you.

Though you'd probably run from us , the level of protein conditioning Me and the lovely Tishee would select for you would depend on what your hair indicates to us that it needs at the time. We know you have mixed emotions about a certain K-- protein so we'll spare you this once. Good luck to you on that self relaxing thing-- we know you're gonna make us proud!

 

[JazzyDez]

I am so glad I opened this thread!!! After reading the entire thing....all I can say is ! You ladies are AMAZING. Sitaslick you continue to inspire me!

Now if you want your hair to remain in the straighter state longer, before you discover just how well your sulfide bonds were broken then yes hold off on a wash. If 100% of those bonds were broken, nothing will happen. If 70% were broken, you are in for a treat! But your true level of bond breakage is going to reveal itself eventually—whether you wash that day or 4 months from then. Hair with 100% broken bondage will never go back, no matter what you do. I’ve left the salon many times with hair that was bone straight—not a kink in sight. Until I got home and washed it. I honestly believe that you cannot gauge the true success of a relaxer until after a few washes. This is when the true relaxed hair pattern emerges.

Why do you think it is that this "reversion" will not show up in the wash immediately following the relaxer? If your hair was not relaxed bone straight shouldnt you be able to tell immediately following the relaxer? I have experienced what appears to be "reversion" in my at home washes post relaxer. If the reversion is surfacing due to the introduction of water confused why would it take a "few" washes??

Gotta love hair care girls and God bless the people who are reading through these winded posts!

LOL. God bless you for exploring and sharing your knowledge and experience with us!! But that WAS a lot to absorb....I think I need a nap now!!

But I am going to check out Supergirls album first!

 

[Sistaslick]

Why do you think it is that this "reversion" will not show up in the wash immediately following the relaxer? If your hair was not relaxed bone straight shouldnt you be able to tell immediately following the relaxer? I have experienced what appears to be "reversion" in my at home washes post relaxer. If the reversion is surfacing due to the introduction of water confused why would it take a "few" washes??

You think this thread was long, wait til you get a load of Supergirl's hair! Hair for days!

To answer your question though, I'm not saying it won't show up in the first wash at all. I think it will! I know for me, the first wash or run in with rain is usually the most telling. I do think a bulk of the underprocessed hair will show up at that first time . . . the second or third may reveal more or less. I guess some of the hydrogen bonds take time to reform--some reform immediately other deeper ones may take awhile. Kind of like when alter those bonds to press or flat iron your hair . . . and then step out into a humid air. Some of your hair puffs and "reverts" immediately while some parts take longer to get with the program.

But the disulfide bond breakage responsible for relaxer turnout and curl pattern is a permanent story--if those bonds are broken after neutralizing they are-- if they aren't, they aren't. You can't put those back together again-- but you can break them down further, aka a corrective relaxer. This is where Shamboosie came in. He was saying you can't do this further break down with a no lye relaxer because it locks the disulfide bonds into place. Only a lye relaxer would allow you to break the bonds down further b/c they aren't "locked." Now, just because they aren't "supposedly" locked in lye formulation does not mean you can simply rebuild them, to a rebuild the curl again though. This reaction is irreversible and can only proceed in one direction . . . a break down.

 

[secretdiamond]

After further research, I learned that the relaxer manufacturers don't include these keratin conditioners in their relaxer programs. And in reading Shamboosie, I learned that once a no-lye relaxer is applied it locks the hair into place and the hair will not receive conditioning treatments well, nor will it be able to take a corrective relaxer*. It's "locked" in. But Shamboosie says that lye relaxers are not so "locking." The hair is more susceptible to conditioning treatments and to corrective relaxers*. This information, to me, supported my original thoughts.

! Is this true?! I JUST switched to no-lye! So my DC's won't be as effective?! What causes this "locking in" process specifically? What is the actual mechanism behind it?

 

[Supergirl]

! Is this true?! I JUST switched to no-lye! So my DC's won't be as effective?! What causes this "locking in" process specifically? What is the actual mechanism behind it?

Well, there are many on the board that will tell you they've been successful with their no-lye relaxers. As for me, the lye relaxer has been much better on my hair than the no-lye. I switched from lye to no-lye at the recommendation of a stylist that said that no-lye was so drying to the hair and that lye wasn't. She said that the lye relaxer would leave my hair in better condition. I've found that to be true. Also, my last stylist would say that she could see the line where my no-lye hair stopped and lye hair began. She said she could tell because the no-lye hair was much dryer.

When anyone asks me for advice on growing their hair, if they relax I always begin by asking if they use lye or no-lye. If they're a no-lyer, I always recommend that they go to lye because I know what I've been able to achieve since making the switch.

 

[secretdiamond]

Thanks Supergirl. I'm happy with the no-lye so far (ok not all the way happy) but I want to know how does anyone know about the "locking in" process without a mechanism or something to prove so. Basically, does anyone know how this was discovered? Or is it just another marketing ploy?

 

[caribeandiva]

i have the same problem. i just figure it's new growth and leave it at that.

 

[Lotus]

Well d@mn! Wait.. ok, let me re-read ya'llz posts. Re-read... still confused as h#ll- . Ok, let me see if I get this right...

Once a 'bond' is broken it's broken. But water & protien will "show/reflect" over time how much the "bonds" are broken down. I may think my hair is 'bone straight' but after a few washes... the truth comes out. So my problem is either that I am not smoothing enough or adding protein too soon... right?erplexed

- Well, good news... I finally found some mango butter- .

I appreciate all the advise and feedback... please, keep it coming.