Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, though.

[Serenity_Peace]

I must say that I have mixed opinions. I don't think her products are anything to write home about, but then again, perhaps there's a better way to use them.

Here's what I did last night:

1. Pre-poo with rosemary, olive and castor oils. Used my heating cap for 20 minutes.

2. Shampoo with Elucence Moisture Balance. I love Elucence! I only shampoo once, as she suggested.

3. Added Cathy Howse Conditioner, concentrating on my 17-week post new growth and especially the ends. I wanted to stop most breakage.

4. I returned to my heating cap for the conditioner and conditioned for 20 minutes, as Cathy suggested. I must say that I really love the tingle that the conditioner gave. I felt like it was working.

5. Then, I went for my shower, rinsing the Conditioner out thoroughly. I then added Elucence Moisture Balance Conditioner. LOVE THIS STUFF! It's a moisturizing conditioner that I love. Left the conditioner on while I did my business in the shower, then rinsed.

6. I used Cathy's Moisturizing Spray, then her creme moisturizer and attempted to detangle. Those products weren't horrible but they were great and didn't detangle much at all.

7. So then I turned to my trusted and beloved Mane N' Tail Moisturizing Detangling Leave-In and my K-Cutter ran effortlessly through my hair. The bad news is that I did lose a fair amount of hair due to shedding, not combing, and I experienced some breakage still even after the protein treatment.

My conclusion is that while the products are fine, they are not the cure for stopping breakage, detangling, and I didn't get the sense that the moisturizers were good enough. My hair does not respond kindly to protein. Therefore, perhaps I conditioned for two long with her Conditioner and therefore needed to have a stronger moisturizer.

I will try her products once more in 3 days, as she suggested. Only this time without the use of heat and for no longer than 15 minutes. (She suggests 15 to 30 minutes.) I will deep condition afterwards with a stronger moisturizing conditioner.

How has your experience been using Cathy Howse's system? Does anyone have any suggestions on how to use this system more effectively without causing so much breakage and shedding? Her system was supposed to stop most of that, but it didn't.

 

[RZILYNT]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

When I started my hair journey I used her products exactly like she explained in her book and I didn't add anything extra. It worked like she said it would. But I like you needed more moisture so I tweeked the regimen until I could get it where I liked the way my hair felt.

I still use her Deep conditioner but I use other moisturizers/conditioners and oils afterwards.

RZ~

 

[Sistaslick]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

Well, do you know exactly why your hair was breaking? Was it a moisture or protein issue? Let's see: You covered your hair in oil, gave it protein, then moisture, then more protein. From glancing at what you've done, I'm not really sure which problem you were attempting to address. Protein?

I really think that you should have clarified your hair first to determine what your breakage needs truly were, then look for products that are meant to take care of that particular breakage need. There is no line or system that is the 100% answer to breakage, since there are really two main possible causes: protein deficiency or moisture deficiency. Usually a line is good for addressing one or the other of those causes, not both. It's up to you to decide the cause and pick a line that specializes in that addressing cause.

You started off with the pre-shampoo treatment, and really, a treatment like that is simply cosmetic. It really does not do much for the hair aside from temporarily making it feel softer. If your problem was a moisture issue, a pre-poo would not have helped that at all except maybe mask the fact that you need to get at the moisture problem. These treatments do not do much for you when you are trying to actually rebuild the hair and fix a problem. To me, they are more for someone whose hair is already in a fairly healthy state and they just want that extra touch.

From my understanding, Cathy Howse's line tends to be rather protein heavy. It is more focused on structural repair. Now, if your hair truly didn't need that and really needed a moisture base, you would not have seen much of a difference in your amount of breakage at the end of your session. If applying a protein treatment or a group of protein products causes you the same or more breakage than before, you know that you should have been addressing your moisture balance.

The Elucence MB was a great choice for moisture, but again you followed it up with more protein with the leave ins. So throughout your session, you netted more protein products than moisture ones.

If you were truly in need of some structural hair repair, then you'd probably be singing Cathy's praises right now. Instead, I think you may have misdiagnosed your cause of breakage. I would focus on pulling out the protein products, and incorporating more moisture sources into the mix. HTH!

I must say that I have mixed opinions. I don't think her products are anything to write home about, but then again, perhaps there's a better way to use them.

Here's what I did last night:

1. Pre-poo with rosemary, olive and castor oils. Used my heating cap for 20 minutes.

2. Shampoo with Elucence Moisture Balance. I love Elucence! I only shampoo once, as she suggested.

3. Added Cathy Howse Conditioner, concentrating on my 17-week post new growth and especially the ends. I wanted to stop most breakage.

4. I returned to my heating cap for the conditioner and conditioned for 20 minutes, as Cathy suggested. I must say that I really love the tingle that the conditioner gave. I felt like it was working.

5. Then, I went for my shower, rinsing the Conditioner out thoroughly. I then added Elucence Moisture Balance Conditioner. LOVE THIS STUFF! It's a moisturizing conditioner that I love. Left the conditioner on while I did my business in the shower, then rinsed.

6. I used Cathy's Moisturizing Spray, then her creme moisturizer and attempted to detangle. Those products weren't horrible but they were great and didn't detangle much at all.

7. So then I turned to my trusted and beloved Mane N' Tail Moisturizing Detangling Leave-In and my K-Cutter ran effortlessly through my hair. The bad news is that I did lose a fair amount of hair due to shedding, not combing, and I experienced some breakage still even after the protein treatment.

My conclusion is that while the products are fine, they are not the cure for stopping breakage, detangling, and I didn't get the sense that the moisturizers were good enough. My hair does not respond kindly to protein. Therefore, perhaps I conditioned for two long with her Conditioner and therefore needed to have a stronger moisturizer.

I will try her products once more in 3 days, as she suggested. Only this time without the use of heat and for no longer than 15 minutes. (She suggests 15 to 30 minutes.) I will deep condition afterwards with a stronger moisturizing conditioner.

How has your experience been using Cathy Howse's system? Does anyone have any suggestions on how to use this system more effectively without causing so much breakage and shedding? Her system was supposed to stop most of that, but it didn't.

 

[the_UnPrettiest_pretty]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

Wow sistaslick!!! Always on time.........gotta love ya

 

[Missi]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

My hair did stop breaking using her conditioner: i do suggest not using her Dew spray as a detangler. I don't feel as though its a detangler PERIOD. i say after you wash out ur moisturizing conditioner: just apply the hair lotion while its wet > damp > and when its dry: spray dew on it.

Through trial & error:
i found that dew works best as a 'Leave in Conditioner' (w/o deep conditioning like the bottle says) and on dry hair (best on new growth).

The lotion is enough for your ends (like how Macheri uses hers) and the dew is enough for your roots (cuz its not real heavy & build up like on your scalp). HTH and make sense.

 

[Serenity_Peace]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

Well, do you know exactly why your hair was breaking? Was it a moisture or protein issue? Let's see: You covered your hair in oil, gave it protein, then moisture, then more protein. From glancing at what you've done, I'm not really sure which problem you were attempting to address. Protein?

I really think that you should have clarified your hair first to determine what your breakage needs truly were, then look for products that are meant to take care of that particular breakage need. There is no line or system that is the 100% answer to breakage, since there are really two main possible causes: protein deficiency or moisture deficiency. Usually a line is good for addressing one or the other of those causes, not both. It's up to you to decide the cause and pick a line that specializes in that addressing cause.

You started off with the pre-shampoo treatment, and really, a treatment like that is simply cosmetic. It really does not do much for the hair aside from temporarily making it feel softer. If your problem was a moisture issue, a pre-poo would not have helped that at all except maybe mask the fact that you need to get at the moisture problem. These treatments do not do much for you when you are trying to actually rebuild the hair and fix a problem. To me, they are more for someone whose hair is already in a fairly healthy state and they just want that extra touch.

From my understanding, Cathy Howse's line tends to be rather protein heavy. It is more focused on structural repair. Now, if your hair truly didn't need that and really needed a moisture base, you would not have seen much of a difference in your amount of breakage at the end of your session. If applying a protein treatment or a group of protein products causes you the same or more breakage than before, you know that you should have been addressing your moisture balance.

The Elucence MB was a great choice for moisture, but again you followed it up with more protein with the leave ins. So throughout your session, you netted more protein products than moisture ones.

If you were truly in need of some structural hair repair, then you'd probably be singing Cathy's praises right now. Instead, I think you may have misdiagnosed your cause of breakage. I would focus on pulling out the protein products, and incorporating more moisture sources into the mix. HTH!

Wow! Sistaslick! Thank you so much! You are always right on time for me and for others here. Now that I think of it, I may have in misdiagnosed my problems. If it is true that Cathy Howse's moisturizers have protein in them, then I did more damage than good. Realizing that my hair simply does not protein, I should have avoided her spray and cream. I looked at the two and they do in fact have proteins in them. But the moisturizing detangler I used does not, which explained why my hair turned around once I added that product. My hair also loves Elucence and I saw an immediate improvement with them. I also didn't have an incredible amount of breakage and shedding prior to the treatment, but I did have some. So, I will try again, leaving the protein treatments alone. They are not necessary, as my hair is still pretty healthy. For the next wash, I'll just focus on deep conditioning and more moisture, which my hair already loves!!!

Thanks so much again!

 

[Serenity_Peace]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

My hair did stop breaking using her conditioner: i do suggest not using her Dew spray as a detangler. I don't feel as though its a detangler PERIOD. i say after you wash out ur moisturizing conditioner: just apply the hair lotion while its wet > damp > and when its dry: spray dew on it.

Through trial & error:
i found that dew works best as a 'Leave in Conditioner' (w/o deep conditioning like the bottle says) and on dry hair (best on new growth).

The lotion is enough for your ends (like how Macheri uses hers) and the dew is enough for your roots (cuz its not real heavy & build up like on your scalp). HTH and make sense.

Thanks so much, Missi. Here are the products that I have:

The Deep Conditioner
The Dew
The Moisturizing Spray

Is there a lotion, too? I don't have that.

I think I will try again next week, only this time clarifying first, then try again to diagnose my problem. I don't have much shedding or breakage, but I do have some. As I touch my hair, it does feel a bit dry. So I think I need much more moisture. Therefore, for my next wash, my focus will be moisture, moisture, moisture.

Thanks again. These comments are really helping me!!

 

[destiny616]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

I have a question about cathy's deep conditioner.

Where's the protein?



this is the ingredients list taken from her website:

Whole Leaf Aloe Vera Concentrate, Purified Water, Peppermint Oil, Royal Bee Jelly, Menthol, Stearic Acid, Stearalkonium Chloride, Jojoba Oil, Safflower Oil, Coconut Oil, Olive Oil, Lecithin, Extracts of: (Papaya, Fennel, Kiwi), Tocopherol, Wheat Germ Oil, Ascorbic Acid, Silica, Fragrance, Methylparaben, Imidazolidinyl Urea, Propylparaben, FD&C Yellow No.5.

 

[Serenity_Peace]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

Hmmmm...that's interesting.

Most people assume that it does have protein. She even said that it is imperative to follow up with a moisturizer. So I don't know. That's odd.

 

[Sistaslick]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

I have a question about cathy's deep conditioner.

Where's the protein?



this is the ingredients list taken from her website:

Whole Leaf Aloe Vera Concentrate, Purified Water, Peppermint Oil, Royal Bee Jelly, Menthol, Stearic Acid, Stearalkonium Chloride, Jojoba Oil, Safflower Oil, Coconut Oil, Olive Oil, Lecithin, Extracts of: (Papaya, Fennel, Kiwi), Tocopherol, Wheat Germ Oil, Ascorbic Acid, Silica, Fragrance, Methylparaben, Imidazolidinyl Urea, Propylparaben, FD&C Yellow No.5.

The whole leaf aloe vera and the letcithin, basically plant proteins.

 

[Missi]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

Thanks so much, Missi. Here are the products that I have:

The Deep Conditioner
The Dew
The Moisturizing Spray

Is there a lotion, too? I don't have that.

I think I will try again next week, only this time clarifying first, then try again to diagnose my problem. I don't have much shedding or breakage, but I do have some. As I touch my hair, it does feel a bit dry. So I think I need much more moisture. Therefore, for my next wash, my focus will be moisture, moisture, moisture.

Thanks again. These comments are really helping me!!

the dew is the spray: she also has UBH Creme Moisturize Lotion

 

[Serenity_Peace]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

the dew is the spray: she also has UBH Creme Moisturize Lotion

Please forgive me. I made a mistake. These are the products that I have:


So, I do have all the products then. I thought there was a 4th, but I have them all.

1. I used the Deep Conditioner after my shampoo.
2. I used the Dew Spray Moisturizer (which really didn't moisturizer) when I rinsed immediately after my shower.
3. I used the Lotion Creme Moisturizer, hoping that it would be a better moisturizer.

Do you use all three of these products and how? I thought I was using them correctly.

 

[janeemat]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

I never used Cathy Howse products, but I did follow her regimen with other products when I began my hair care before finding this site.

 

[Serenity_Peace]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

I never used Cathy Howse products, but I did follow her regimen with other products when I began my hair care before finding this site.

How did you do?

 

[ddean]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

Please forgive me. I made a mistake. These are the products that I have:


So, I do have all the products then. I thought there was a 4th, but I have them all.

1. I used the Deep Conditioner after my shampoo.
2. I used the Dew Spray Moisturizer (which really didn't moisturizer) when I rinsed immediately after my shower.
3. I used the Lotion Creme Moisturizer, hoping that it would be a better moisturizer.

Do you use all three of these products and how? I thought I was using them correctly.

I use her Deep Conditioner as well, and I don't normally follow it with a moisturizing conditioner unless I'm more than 6 weeks post relaxer. For detangling, I use either a creme rinse or Paul Mitchell The Detangler. I don't use her Moisturizer or Dew to detangle because I don't think they detangle well.

After I've detangled, I use her Creme Moisturizer while my hair is still damp. To my knowledge, neither the Dew nor the Moisturizer have protein in them...only her Deep Conditioner.

I also use her Dew and Creme Moisturizer to moisturize my hair on a daily basis. If I'm wearing my hair down, I'll use the Dew for a quick burst of moisture, and I also use it before I tie my hair up at night. If I'm wearing my hair up or in a bun, I'll use the Creme Moisturizer. I don't use her products exclusively, but they've been in rotation since I started my journey. HTH.

 

[Desert Skye]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

I never used Cathy Howse products, but I did follow her regimen with other products when I began my hair care before finding this site.

Yup me too. I learned the bare basics through her book such as the importance of protiens and deep conditioning, and not to use brushes (at this time I was using a brush with broken bristles!!) Her products didnt wow me either and I always felt something was missing.

Now after finding this site, I was able to get my hair to finally thrive.Also I feel the hair on most of the ladies on this forum is so much healthier looking then Cathy's

 

[destiny616]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

The whole leaf aloe vera and the letcithin, basically plant proteins.

thanks for answering

 

[cocoberry10]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

Her products never did much for me either, and now that I've found this website, I know there are just as many other good products out there!

 

[Missi]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

Please forgive me. I made a mistake. These are the products that I have:

1. I used the Deep Conditioner after my shampoo.
2. I used the Dew Spray Moisturizer (which really didn't moisturizer) when I rinsed immediately after my shower.
3. I used the Lotion Creme Moisturizer, hoping that it would be a better moisturizer.

Do you use all three of these products and how? I thought I was using them correctly.

I apply her DC on my ends once a week: but now I think I gotta do it 2x a month:

I apply her lotion to my hair wet and damp: after that my hair is soft fully dry and appling the lotion will be too much moisture: my hair will feel heavy so i just spray the dew

 

[gymfreak336]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

What is the basis of the Cathy Howse method?

 

[Babygurl]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

I Actually grew my hair using Cathy Howse's METHODS that were modified with buns, but Ive never used her products. I think anyone should be careful about using too many products at once, In my opinion too many steps and products can complicate things, as well as make your hair feel like crap. I say a good shampoo, deep conditioner and leave-in would be a good start, no need to go overboard. Im a member of the keep it simple club, you can sustain a simple regimen MUCH longer than one with 45 steps from start to finish.

 

[Isis]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

I must say that I have mixed opinions. I don't think her products are anything to write home about, but then again, perhaps there's a better way to use them.

Here's what I did last night:

1. Pre-poo with rosemary, olive and castor oils. Used my heating cap for 20 minutes.

2. Shampoo with Elucence Moisture Balance. I love Elucence! I only shampoo once, as she suggested.

3. Added Cathy Howse Conditioner, concentrating on my 17-week post new growth and especially the ends. I wanted to stop most breakage.

4. I returned to my heating cap for the conditioner and conditioned for 20 minutes, as Cathy suggested. I must say that I really love the tingle that the conditioner gave. I felt like it was working.

5. Then, I went for my shower, rinsing the Conditioner out thoroughly. I then added Elucence Moisture Balance Conditioner. LOVE THIS STUFF! It's a moisturizing conditioner that I love. Left the conditioner on while I did my business in the shower, then rinsed.

6. I used Cathy's Moisturizing Spray, then her creme moisturizer and attempted to detangle. Those products weren't horrible but they were great and didn't detangle much at all.

7. So then I turned to my trusted and beloved Mane N' Tail Moisturizing Detangling Leave-In and my K-Cutter ran effortlessly through my hair. The bad news is that I did lose a fair amount of hair due to shedding, not combing, and I experienced some breakage still even after the protein treatment.

My conclusion is that while the products are fine, they are not the cure for stopping breakage, detangling, and I didn't get the sense that the moisturizers were good enough. My hair does not respond kindly to protein. Therefore, perhaps I conditioned for two long with her Conditioner and therefore needed to have a stronger moisturizer.

I will try her products once more in 3 days, as she suggested. Only this time without the use of heat and for no longer than 15 minutes. (She suggests 15 to 30 minutes.) I will deep condition afterwards with a stronger moisturizing conditioner.

How has your experience been using Cathy Howse's system? Does anyone have any suggestions on how to use this system more effectively without causing so much breakage and shedding? Her system was supposed to stop most of that, but it didn't.

I started my hair journey with Cathy Howse's method but I tweaked it for my needs.

First, I eliminated all heat. I wanted to learn how to airdry instead and that's what I did (in a rollerset). No more breakage for me.

I still wash twice each week (every 3 to 4 days) and not combing except on wash day, on wet hair. I still shampoo once.

Also, I don't have her products--I started out with the Nexxus products I already had and still use (except it's Nexxus Phyto-Organics now).

There are probably more of her techniques I use, I'm just not remembering at the moment.

 

[Serenity_Peace]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

Isis and Babygurl: Two of my hair idols...

Thank you so much for responding to this thread. It helps me out a lot. The K.I.S.S. method also seems to work for me, and since I'm stretching, I really do like the idea of not combing or brushing until wash day. I wear buns 99% of the time, especially now that I'm stretching. And I wonder if the fact that I don't comb may have contributed to the sheds that I did receive when I did detangle on my wash day.

I will try Cathy Howse's products again. (Saturday is the 3rd day.) This time, I will incorproate more moisture and less protein. In other words, I will ditch the heating cap rather than use heat for the Deep Conditioner phase, instead doing so in the shower just like she suggested. I'll follow that with a much more moisturizing deep conditioner than what I used, which was the Elucence. It's not a deep moisturizing conditioner. I learned that it's a rinse. (You keep it on for 1 minute, then rinse.) I think that may have been my mistake right there.

@ Gym: I think the basic fundamentals of the Howse method is to find a solution to damaged or breaking hair. My hair is not really damaged. I just felt that I needed protein because I was experience some breakage but not a lot. I wanted to try her method. The only aspect of it that I do not follow is her use of heat. But I think that overall, her discussion on how to care for textured hair by ditching combs and brushes, when and how to relax, using moisturizing products that don't contain alcohol, etc. makes sense.

I think that protective styling is key for me. My hair is growing very well and faster than it's ever grown before. And I think Babygurl is right: bunning and protective styles are a proven method. Isis is right about the modification of heat. I've incorporated both these techniques into my regimen. The challenge, then, for me is to find a nice balance between protein and moisture. I think I'm on the right path in terms of products that I use, but I just need to be able to perceive when I should use them according to the state of my hair. I may be perceiving wrongly, as Sistaslick stated. Breakage is a natural condition. It's excessive breakage that becomes the problem and I don't have much of that.

 

[gymfreak336]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

Isis and Babygurl: Two of my hair idols...

Thank you so much for responding to this thread. It helps me out a lot. The K.I.S.S. method also seems to work for me, and since I'm stretching, I really do like the idea of not combing or brushing until wash day. I wear buns 99% of the time, especially now that I'm stretching. And I wonder if the fact that I don't comb may have contributed to the sheds that I did receive when I did detangle on my wash day.

I will try Cathy Howse's products again. (Saturday is the 3rd day.) This time, I will incorproate more moisture and less protein. In other words, I will ditch the heating cap rather than use heat for the Deep Conditioner phase, instead doing so in the shower just like she suggested. I'll follow that with a much more moisturizing deep conditioner than what I used, which was the Elucence. It's not a deep moisturizing conditioner. I learned that it's a rinse. (You keep it on for 1 minute, then rinse.) I think that may have been my mistake right there.

@ Gym: I think the basic fundamentals of the Howse method is to find a solution to damaged or breaking hair. My hair is not really damaged. I just felt that I needed protein because I was experience some breakage but not a lot. I wanted to try her method. The only aspect of it that I do not follow is her use of heat. But I think that overall, her discussion on how to care for textured hair by ditching combs and brushes, when and how to relax, using moisturizing products that don't contain alcohol, etc. makes sense.

I think that protective styling is key for me. My hair is growing very well and faster than it's ever grown before. And I think Babygurl is right: bunning and protective styles are a proven method. Isis is right about the modification of heat. I've incorporated both these techniques into my regimen. The challenge, then, for me is to find a nice balance between protein and moisture. I think I'm on the right path in terms of products that I use, but I just need to be able to perceive when I should use them according to the state of my hair. I may be perceiving wrongly, as Sistaslick stated. Breakage is a natural condition. It's excessive breakage that becomes the problem and I don't have much of that.

Thanks for the info

 

[sunshinebeautiful]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

I stumbled upon Cathy's book back in 2001 or so. I used the methods, but not the products. And I started retaining length. After a few months, I remember my mom asking if this was my real hair (I used to wear weaves pretty frequently) because it looked nice and healthy and longer.

Then I started going to a hairdresser who ruined my progress by overprocessing my hair. I thought because I had started seeing a stylist on the regular that that was what was best for my hair, but not in this case.

I went natural and started over with a new head of hair. I relaxed again last October. To me, her methods still make sense.

 

[honeybadgirl]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

OT...i love elucence too!!!
thats my best find of the year!!!

 

[morehairplease]

Re: Tried Cathy Howse: Her methods make sense. I'm not sure about the products, thoug

ladies would Cathy's co be considered a hardcore/heavy protein co?

thanks in advance,
tishee