Wiry vs. Coarse hair...

[MekyakaKinkerbelle]

How can you tell the difference? Is there a marked visual difference? I always thought I had coarse hair, but now I wonder if it is just wiry.

Does this make a difference whether you are natural, texlaxed, or relaxed?

If you are relaxed and wiry, do you consider your hair coarse as well?

Are there any other natural and wiry heads out there? Like me and LynnieB?

 

[locabouthair]

How can you tell the difference? Is there a marked visual difference? I always thought I had coarse hair, but now I wonder if it is just wiry.

Does this make a difference whether you are natural, texlaxed, or relaxed?

If you are relaxed and wiry, do you consider your hair coarse as well?

Are there any other natural and wiry heads out there? Like me and LynnieB?

I always thought coarse and wiry were the same thing. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

My hair has always been coarse/wiry whether I was relaxed or natural. As a natural it more coarse but even though I'm relaxed, it's still coarse as well.

With coarse hair the diameter of the strand is bigger.

 

[LynnieB]

bump da dee bump cause i wanna know too.

 

[scribblescrabble2]

I always thought that coarse was related to the thickness of the individual strand and wiry dealt with the way the strand felt. Like you can have soft coarse strands or hard and wiry coarse strands. I am probably wrong though and I would love to hear other people's thoughts.

 

[nappity]

I always thought that coarse was related to the thickness of the individual strand and wiry dealt with the way the strand felt. Like you can have soft coarse strands or hard and wiry coarse strands. I am probably wrong though and I would love to hear other people's thoughts.

I agree with this assessment- I have coarse hair- but its also wiry

 

[Kurlee]

the two are interchangeable

 

[fluffylocks]

I was actually thinking about this last night because i was confused also....I think it goes like this

Diameter: fine, regualr, coarse

Textures: Silky, Cottony, Wooley, Wirey

Feel: Soft, Hard

Shape: Straight, Curly, Wavy

At first i thought that certain things always went together, but now i think you can have any combination because i've seen black people, with curly or straight hair, and silky texture,----Then i've seen white people with straight hair, and cottony coarse texture, Or white people with straight hair, silky texture, but still coarse hair ( i think Asian hair is like that also)

 

[nappity]

I was actually thinking about this last night because i was confused also....I think it goes like this

Diameter: fine, regualr, coarse

Textures: Silky, Cottony, Wooley, Wirey

Feel: Soft, Hard

Shape: Straight, Curly, Wavy

At first i thought that certain things always went together, but now i think you can have any combination because i've seen black people, with curly or straight hair, and silky texture,----Then i've seen white people with straight hair, and cottony coarse texture, Or white people with straight hair, silky texture, but still coarse hair ( i think Asian hair is like that also)

Yes that why the two terms are not interchangeable, they talk about different aspects of the hair which is why they can occur simultaneously. I occurs on my hair every day. LOL

 

[fluffylocks]

I was thinking about something last night kind of related.....

I was wondering if the shape of the hair determines the way the cuticles lay on your hair, and the way it hangs, and that the shape of the hair DOESNT determine the curl......

We have read that black people have curly and dry hair because of the shape of our hair strands because they are almost flat and that we are really the only people with a hair shape like ours
But im sure we've all seen white/spanish people with really curly hair, but it was not dry or dull, and grew down like white people/asian (whoever)

There is a conditon white people have called "cheveux incoiffables" It causes their hair to grow up, like a afro, and it appears (imo) alittle more dry/rough looking than if they didnt have the conditon and i think its because their cuticles may be back, there hair also sticks together more, so that its harder to comb (the conditon is really called "uncombable hair).....their hair is still "silky" and not "cottony, whooley, or wirey"....and we all know that anyone can have "fine, regualr, or coarse hair" as far as how big each hair strand is.

The shape of the white peoples hair with "cheveux incoiffables " looks just like our hair shape.

http://www.pg.com/science/haircare/hair_twh_112.htm


So I think that curls in your hair come from disulfide bonds ONLY....That way anyone can have curly hair, but it doesnt nesscaliry have to grow up and out like an afro, or be dry, or be "uncombable"

And that our hair as black peoples grow's up &/or out instead of hanging down because of the SHAPE of our hair, and that that, for some reason causes the cuticles of our hair to be raises....which is why we have dry hair issus. I think that the folicle shape is what gets passed down from generation to generation.....because not all black peope have curly hair, but alot of us have dry hair that doesnt grow hanging down and is more "cohesive" in that its thicker and harder to comb, more stiff and not as limp as white/hispanic/asian hair

I think the less flat your hair is, and the more round.....The less your hair grows up and out, and the less the cuticles are raised, ....so you have hair that hangs/grows down more, and hair that is not as dry, cuticles are down, and shines more.

Because Asian people have perfectly round hair strands, in return their hair grows straight down, and the cuticles are more compact, in return, their hair is the most shiny, and straight.
Then you have these white people with hair strands the shape of ours, and their hair grows up, and is dry.

So i think it goes like this

*Rounder the hair--More it grows down, More cuticles are down, Limper/Less cohesive hair (hair is less stiff, less volume, clumps/sticks together less)
*The more Flat/"Ribbon like" your hair---The more it grows up, the more cuticles are back, and the more volume, more stiff (not going to fly all over the place) and the more your hair will be cohesive (stick/clumb together so its harder to comb)

Which would explain why someone could take MSM and get hair that is less curly or have a silkier feel.....Maybe the shape of the hair is the only thing that is REALLY usually only in black people

Which is why you could relax your hair, the curls are gone....and you still have dry hair issues or airdry and your hair still doesnt hang down, or is really easy to comb unless you use a flatiron or something

Then

Diameter--Fine, Regualr, Coarse
Textures---Silky, Cottony, Whooley, Wirey
Feel--Soft, hard
Shape--Curly, Straight, Wavy

 

[gymfreak336]

I was thinking about something last night kind of related.....

I was wondering if the shape of the hair determines the way the cuticles lay on your hair, and the way it hangs, and that the shape of the hair DOESNT determine the curl......

We have read that black people have curly and dry hair because of the shape of our hair strands because they are almost flat and that we are really the only people with a hair shape like ours
But im sure we've all seen white/spanish people with really curly hair, but it was not dry or dull, and grew down like white people/asian (whoever)

There is a conditon white people have called "cheveux incoiffables" It causes their hair to grow up, like a afro, and it appears (imo) alittle more dry/rough looking than if they didnt have the conditon and i think its because their cuticles may be back, there hair also sticks together more, so that its harder to comb (the conditon is really called "uncombable hair).....their hair is still "silky" and not "cottony, whooley, or wirey"....and we all know that anyone can have "fine, regualr, or coarse hair" as far as how big each hair strand is.

The shape of the white peoples hair with "cheveux incoiffables " looks just like our hair shape.

http://www.pg.com/science/haircare/hair_twh_112.htm


So I think that curls in your hair come from disulfide bonds ONLY....That way anyone can have curly hair, but it doesnt nesscaliry have to grow up and out like an afro, or be dry, or be "uncombable"

And that our hair as black peoples grow's up &/or out instead of hanging down because of the SHAPE of our hair, and that that, for some reason causes the cuticles of our hair to be raises....which is why we have dry hair issus. I think that the folicle shape is what gets passed down from generation to generation.....because not all black peope have curly hair, but alot of us have dry hair that doesnt grow hanging down and is more "cohesive" in that its thicker and harder to comb, more stiff and not as limp as white/hispanic/asian hair

I think the less flat your hair is, and the more round.....The less your hair grows up and out, and the less the cuticles are raised, ....so you have hair that hangs/grows down more, and hair that is not as dry, cuticles are down, and shines more.

Because Asian people have perfectly round hair strands, in return their hair grows straight down, and the cuticles are more compact, in return, their hair is the most shiny, and straight.
Then you have these white people with hair strands the shape of ours, and their hair grows up, and is dry.

So i think it goes like this

*Rounder the hair--More it grows down, More cuticles are down, Limper/Less cohesive hair (hair is less stiff, less volume, clumps/sticks together less)
*The more Flat/"Ribbon like" your hair---The more it grows up, the more cuticles are back, and the more volume, more stiff (not going to fly all over the place) and the more your hair will be cohesive (stick/clumb together so its harder to comb)

Which would explain why someone could take MSM and get hair that is less curly or have a silkier feel.....Maybe the shape of the hair is the only thing that is REALLY usually only in black people

Which is why you could relax your hair, the curls are gone....and you still have dry hair issues or airdry and your hair still doesnt hang down, or is really easy to comb unless you use a flatiron or something

Then

Diameter--Fine, Regualr, Coarse
Textures---Silky, Cottony, Whooley, Wirey
Feel--Soft, hard
Shape--Curly, Straight, Wavy

That is true. This is also why the frequency of split ends is different through out the races. African American hair is a tip that is more likey to spontaneously fray than Asian hair and Caucasian hair is right in the middle of those too.

 

[AfroKink]

I was thinking about something last night kind of related.....

I was wondering if the shape of the hair determines the way the cuticles lay on your hair, and the way it hangs, and that the shape of the hair DOESNT determine the curl......

And that our hair as black peoples grow's up &/or out instead of hanging down because of the SHAPE of our hair, and that that, for some reason causes the cuticles of our hair to be raises....which is why we have dry hair issus. I think that the folicle shape is what gets passed down from generation to generation.....because not all black peope have curly hair, but alot of us have dry hair that doesnt grow hanging down and is more "cohesive" in that its thicker and harder to comb, more stiff and not as limp as white/hispanic/asian hair

I believe the shape of our hair is determined by the shape of the follicles. I think that the number of cuticle layers and whether not they are raised is independent of the shape of the strand. (not all kinky haire people have dryness issues).

And I think curl pattern is an interaction between the disulfide bonds, the hair shape and the number of cuticle layers. Because black people who have ribbon like hairstrands, with the fewest cuticle layers it can be more easily bent into kinks and curls by disulfide bonds. Relaxers, I believe, break the sulfide bonds. Asian people who have round hair strands, with the most cuticle layers cannot be easily bent by disulfide bonds.

Lys

 

[MissMasala5]

ITA, it's the shape of the actual follicles that determines hair strand texture. Most Asians have round (straight), caucasians have round (straight) to oblong (wavy/curly), some have flat (remember that landscape painter on the PBS channel) and most Africans have mostly flat follicles (very curly). Exceptions abound.

 

[fluffylocks]

I believe the shape of our hair is determined by the shape of the follicles. I think that the number of cuticle layers and whether not they are raised is independent of the shape of the strand. (not all kinky haire people have dryness issues).

And I think curl pattern is an interaction between the disulfide bonds, the hair shape and the number of cuticle layers. Because black people who have ribbon like hairstrands, with the fewest cuticle layers it can be more easily bent into kinks and curls by disulfide bonds. Relaxers, I believe, break the sulfide bonds. Asian people who have round hair strands, with the most cuticle layers cannot be easily bent by disulfide bonds.

Lys

Thats what got me thinking about all this.....why is that? Why dont all people with curly/kinky hair have dry hair....But the majority of black people do?

Thats why i think that all the factors are not dependent on each other


Alot of black people have curls in their hair, but we dont usually have the "silky" hair texture that most of the other races have, our hair is usually cottony, whooley, or wirey, no matter the degree of curls or no curls in our hair, we typically do not have "silky" limp hair that hangs down naturally

Then you have some black people with no curls in their hair at all, but their hair is still usually cottony, whooley or wirey

But then again, there can be a white, hispanic (ect.) person with curly hair, but they dont have the same texture as us.

So Curly hair does not equal Cottony, Whooley or Wirey
And Straight hair does not equal Silky

Anyone of any race can be born with curly hair....but their hair is not dry

THE MAJORITY of black people have dry hair, no matter how much curls they have, but we've read that the majoirty of us with dry hair has it because the curls in our hair causes the cuticles not to be able to lay down.....but look at nicole kidman with really curly hair....why doesnt her hair look like ours?

And THE MAJORITY of black people have a hair shape/folicle that is different from all of the other races.

Then you have these white people with the "uncombable hair syndrome"....they have the same shape hair as us....

But their hair is not cottony or whooley, it just grows up, is cohesive, and is dry.

So anyway....I just think that the shape of the folice causes our hair to grow up and the cuticles to be pushed back, and that most black people have that folicle, but that it has nothing to do with curly hair....which is why someone can have curly hair, but it not be dry which is why people tell us our hair is dry.

 

[justNikki]

Coarse hair is a trait of asian and indian people. That being said, all coarse hair is not the same. Hair that is coarse is simply hair that has thick strands. Most black people use it to denote the feel of the hair, but that's incorrect. Not all coarse hair feels the same.

 

[AfroKink]

My understanding is as follows:

1. The majority of black people have dry hair because they have open cuticles. Open cuticles = dry hair. That's one issue on its self. No matter the texture, open cuticle means dry hair. I've never read anywhere that curl pattern causes the cuticle to be open, which book/article has that in it?

2. Curl pattern, strand shape, and strand size determine texture - if your hair is cottony, wiry, silky.. etc.

From that PG.com site
"Much of the attraction of a beautiful head of hair lies in its texture, or feel. The texture of hair depends on several things.
The first is the average diameter of the individual hairs. We have seen that these vary widely. The larger the hair diameter, the coarser it will feel.
Secondly, different people's hair naturally feels different: some hard and others soft, some silky and others wiry. The reasons underlying these differences are still a matter for scientists to argue over.
Thirdly, the texture is affected by the degree of weathering of the hair.
Finally, hair texture is affected by what has been put on it. Repeated lavish applications of hair spray gives hair a different feel from that of hair that has been freshly washed and conditioned. Conditioners make hair feel soft and smooth. Conditioners that contain silicones even give a slightly different feel from those that don't (most manufacturers do put silicones into conditioners nowadays, however, as they protect the hair cuticle). Contrary to popular belief, this altered feel is [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]not[/FONT] a sign of build-up."


Like you said Fluffy, I think curl pattern and dryness are not caused by the same thing

Lys

 

[AfroKink]

This book, Ethnic Skin and Hair by Howard I. Berardesca would probably answer all of your questions and more. It collects data from many different scientific articles. I read through some of the sections on skin, it was very informative. I found it at my library. You can buy it online for $$$

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/Ethnic-Skin-and-Hair-Berardesca-Leveque/9780849330889-item.html?s_campaign=ysm_submit_affiliate&pticket=rxcs35554nc3g455stcgala5CtcSQheS%2fLDjQR8mQoz4ybrjz68%3d

Lys

 

[fluffylocks]

My understanding is as follows:

1. The majority of black people have dry hair because they have open cuticles. Open cuticles = dry hair. That's one issue on its self. No matter the texture, open cuticle means dry hair. I've never read anywhere that curl pattern causes the cuticle to be open, which book/article has that in it? I agree and I Believe Cathy's, i've seen it numerous times on here also though that curly hair causes cuticles to be raised because all the turns and twists will not allow the cuticle to lay down

2. Curl pattern, strand shape, and strand size determine texture - if your hair is cottony, wiry, silky.. etc. Bot lots of people have the same textures though....Thats what i dont get. There can be a person with no curl pattern, a oval strand shape, and coarse hair....and have a silky texture, then a person with a curl pattern, a flatter strand shape, and fine hair---but silky texture....? The only difference with black people is that our hair grows more out and the cuticles and that our hair is more cohesive....everything else can be the same

From that PG.com site
"Much of the attraction of a beautiful head of hair lies in its texture, or feel. The texture of hair depends on several things.
The first is the average diameter of the individual hairs. We have seen that these vary widely. The larger the hair diameter, the coarser it will feel.
Secondly, different people's hair naturally feels different: some hard and others soft, some silky and others wiry. The reasons underlying these differences are still a matter for scientists to argue over.
Thirdly, the texture is affected by the degree of weathering of the hair.
Finally, hair texture is affected by what has been put on it. Repeated lavish applications of hair spray gives hair a different feel from that of hair that has been freshly washed and conditioned. Conditioners make hair feel soft and smooth. Conditioners that contain silicones even give a slightly different feel from those that don't (most manufacturers do put silicones into conditioners nowadays, however, as they protect the hair cuticle). Contrary to popular belief, this altered feel is [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]not[/FONT] a sign of build-up."


Like you said Fluffy, I think curl pattern and dryness are not caused by the same thing

Lys

I'm gonna leave it & U alone now though because i'm not trying to debate or anything, its just interesting to me but i dont wanna be worrsome

 

[fluffylocks]

This book, Ethnic Skin and Hair by Howard I. Berardesca would probably answer all of your questions and more. It collects data from many different scientific articles. I read through some of the sections on skin, it was very informative. I found it at my library. You can buy it online for $$$

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/Ethnic-Skin-and-Hair-Berardesca-Leveque/9780849330889-item.html?s_campaign=ysm_submit_affiliate&pticket=rxcs35554nc3g455stcgala5CtcSQheS%2fLDjQR8mQoz4ybrjz68%3d

Lys

Thanks! I love stuff like that.....that badboy is kinda pricey though (140? ) Imma see if my library has it Thanks!

 

[JustKiya]

Ooooh, I love stuff like this! The science of hair - this is real information!!

and this:

I was actually thinking about this last night because i was confused also....I think it goes like this

Diameter: fine, regualr, coarse

Textures: Silky, Cottony, Wooley, Wirey

Feel: Soft, Hard

Shape: Straight, Curly, Wavy

At first i thought that certain things always went together, but now i think you can have any combination because i've seen black people, with curly or straight hair, and silky texture,----Then i've seen white people with straight hair, and cottony coarse texture, Or white people with straight hair, silky texture, but still coarse hair ( i think Asian hair is like that also)

is simply brilliant!

My hair is fine, wiry, soft, curly and dry.

THAT's a hair description - and that really covers the important stuff. Does the diameter of the curl REALLY matter?

 

[fluffylocks]

Ooooh, I love stuff like this! The science of hair - this is real information!!

and this:



is simply brilliant!

My hair is fine, wiry, soft, curly and dry.

THAT's a hair description - and that really covers the important stuff. Does the diameter of the curl REALLY matter?

Thanks!

You mean like wether its fine, regular or coarse?

I think it's just good to know and saves time and fustrations because each of them have their own properties....Like in the fine hair section i read that the hair has a tendacy to be really soft, snap pretty easy if it has to much product on it ect, and then some coarse hair can be very resistant to products, be more dry, rough, and dull....and it would probally save someone alot of time while building their regimen if they knew what they had *shrugs*

 

[AfroKink]

Ooooh, I love stuff like this! The science of hair - this is real information!!

and this:



is simply brilliant!

My hair is fine, wiry, soft, curly and dry.

THAT's a hair description - and that really covers the important stuff. Does the diameter of the curl REALLY matter?

The LOIS hair typing system covers those things.

Lys

 

[gymfreak336]

Ooooh, I love stuff like this! The science of hair - this is real information!!

and this:



is simply brilliant!

My hair is fine, wiry, soft, curly and dry.

THAT's a hair description - and that really covers the important stuff. Does the diameter of the curl REALLY matter?

Yeah wiry can be fine medium or coarse.

 

[JustKiya]

Ooooh, I love stuff like this! The science of hair - this is real information!!

and this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by fluffylocks
I was actually thinking about this last night because i was confused also....I think it goes like this

Diameter: fine, regualr, coarse

Textures: Silky, Cottony, Wooley, Wirey

Feel: Soft, Hard

Shape: Straight, Curly, Wavy

At first i thought that certain things always went together, but now i think you can have any combination because i've seen black people, with curly or straight hair, and silky texture,----Then i've seen white people with straight hair, and cottony coarse texture, Or white people with straight hair, silky texture, but still coarse hair ( i think Asian hair is like that also)

is simply brilliant!

My hair is fine, wiry, soft, curly and dry.

THAT's a hair description - and that really covers the important stuff. Does the diameter of the curl REALLY matter?

Thanks!

You mean like wether its fine, regular or coarse?

I think it's just good to know and saves time and fustrations because each of them have their own properties....Like in the fine hair section i read that the hair has a tendacy to be really soft, snap pretty easy if it has to much product on it ect, and then some coarse hair can be very resistant to products, be more dry, rough, and dull....and it would probally save someone alot of time while building their regimen if they knew what they had *shrugs*

Nah, nah, I meant the diameter of the CURL, not of the hair. As in, whether you have magic marker sized curls (3a/3b) or if you have pinspring sized curls (4a/4b) - or if you don't have any curls at all (1a/cnapp) - that doesn't REALLY matter as much as whether your hair is fine/medium/coarse.....

 

[fluffylocks]

Nah, nah, I meant the diameter of the CURL, not of the hair. As in, whether you have magic marker sized curls (3a/3b) or if you have pinspring sized curls (4a/4b) - or if you don't have any curls at all (1a/cnapp) - that doesn't REALLY matter as much as whether your hair is fine/medium/coarse.....

(Oh I thought you werent talking about that because i was sure you knew all of that before me just had to say it anyway lol)

Yeaaaahhhhhh! See thats what i was thinking, but you worded it better.

I think the curls or straight hair are irrellavent, and what really matters is the texture of your hair, and the fine/med./coarse stuff. right? And that any hair with curls or not can go into any texture from silky to cottony, and any diameter from fine to coarse.

And it seems like the texture and the diameter of your hair strands determines more what will work for your hair or not, not so much the curl.

You said your hair is dry also,....i Guess thats another category that needs to go in there.....Like whether your hair is dry, greasy, or regualr

And then maybe the actuall conditon of your hair

Natural, Virgin & Colored, Relaxed, Relaxed & Colored, Curled/Waved, Curled/Waved & Colored......

Healthy, Overproccesed, Heat damaged, ect.....

That could REALLY help people

Im glad you like stuff like this too...so interesting

 

[JustKiya]

*nods*

That could help people SO much - talk about seriously finding hair twins - and talk about being REAL about your hair, ya know?