Are Our Hair Really Healthy or Our We Putting A Bandage On It?

[Bnster]

Are Our Hair Really Healthy or Are We Putting A Bandage On It?

Monday afternoon, when I was sick, I was laying in bed with my hair loose though resting my hair on my satin pillow case. Sunday I had just did my wash and air dried with leave-ins. Before I slept that night I put on my silk scarf but did not bag my ends. The only thing I did different with my wash was I did my DC w/Mizani moisturfuse, then used Aveda DR, etc. (My staple DC is Aveda DR w/oils).

Well that night I could tell my hair wasn't doing good b4 putting on my scarf. I was wondering, when our hair is looking nice because - smooth or soft texture, moist, etc because we did all the steps, is it truly healthy? If only one time I did not use heat to straighten out the texture and my hair felt not as moist, is my hair really healthy?

Am I (are we) putting a bandaid on it? Yesterday and this morning, I really moisturized my hair. Last night after moisturizing and sealing I put hempseed oil (ceramide) and this morning I heavily moisturized and sealed my hair.

Oh I just remember something else I did. I used a sample of MT shampoo (yes it did have SFL - that why I wouldn't buy it). The lady said it did not dry out her hair. So I took a sample to try out. When I washed my hair it didn't feel stripped.

Okay I am rambling, what do you think? Are we bandaging the supposed healthiness of our hair, if we can't do all the steps in our process? If we leave out a step or steps it doesn't feel and look the way you want it to be. Our state of our hair that we assume is healthy is it really healthy?

I hope I explained myself clearly, what is your opinion on this?

 

[Aviah]

I see it as our hair is usually drier or more breakage prone than less kinky hairtypes. Its like a plant- without all the right factors even the strongest plant will shrivel up. Some faster some slower than others. We're just making sure its in the right environment more often than not, because our hair is usually more fragile/ delicate/ or just plain fussy

Unhealthy hair IMO will show signs of evacuating your scalp, or acting out no matter what you put on it in most cases...

 

[Imani]

I've often wondered the same thing. ^^^Thats a good way to describe it.

 

[Bnster]

I see it as our hair is usually drier or more breakage prone than less kinky hairtypes. Its like a plant- without all the right factors even the strongest plant will shrivel up. Some faster some slower than others. We're just making sure its in the right environment more often than not, because our hair is usually more fragile/ delicate/ or just plain fussy

Unhealthy hair IMO will show signs of evacuating your scalp, or acting out no matter what you put on it in most cases...

Aviah
Aye, I like the plant comparison, so if the plant doesn't get water and sun it will die and shrivel up. Our hair is something like that. But with a plant it will take a few days or weeks b4 any effect on it. This was like the next day, I felt this way, just because I left some of my routine steps out. Again is truly healthy. What is acceptable, 1 day, couple of days, a week b4 we see a difference?

I've often wondered the same thing. ^^^Thats a good way to describe it.

Imani
So I am not alone on this thought.

 

[lovegymnasts]

Everything needs certain items to thrive.
Not providing these things will cause adverse effects.
Providing what your hair needs is not a bandaid. You are simply meeting its basic needs.
It is the same as all the things you do for your baby. They are not bandaids. They are simply meeting a need. If you leave out the step of feeding your baby, your baby will definitely not act right. If you do not do something your hair needs, it will not act right. That's how I see it.

 

[Bnster]

What is acting right? So we self imposing how it should act, but in nature it isn't like that. Fine. However, the steps we are doing is suppose to strengthen and moisten (soften). I would expect some leeway given to me, if I didn't do something. I would think that what I have been doing for over 3yrs now will change the dynamic of my hair and my hair structure can handle slight changes. At least a few days, I would prefer a week. How quickly can our quality change? It is scary to me.

 

[lovegymnasts]

A baby always needs to be fed no matter how often you have fed it in the past. You can't go a few days without feeding it.
Basic necessity

 

[ms-gg]

No it is not.

Unless you are sick, meaning you have some disorder that makes your hair strands naturally grow out of your hair weak, your hair grows out of your scalp healthy, not missing any cuticles, cortex is not exposed, etc etc. We damage our hair. WE damage it. We damage it by using chemicals, mechanical damage by way of combs, brushes, clips, rubber bands etc. Yes, it is true that sun, wind, and life damages your hair too, but "we" cause most of the damage to our hair by our actions.

After we damage it, we may throw a band aid on it by using proteins and the like to patch up missing cuticles, but by moisturizing and oiling our hair, we are protecting and preserving our hair from the damage by keeping our strands properly lubricated.

 

[Nix08]

If we use the same plant analogy, the plant is alive vs our hair which is dead. The plant will store that which it needs and will be able to survive with very little for a short while. The dead hair will need help to look/feel right. I read someone compare our hair to wood...in that a slab of wood is dead how it looks and feels is dependent on what we do to it...so our hair may not be healthy, we are not be putting a bandage on it but we are optimizing it's potential with all that we do, when we slip so does it.

 

[AlliCat]

No it is not.

Unless you are sick, meaning you have some disorder that makes your hair strands naturally grow out of your hair weak, your hair grows out of your scalp healthy, not missing any cuticles, cortex is not exposed, etc etc. We damage our hair. WE damage it. We damage it by using chemicals, mechanical damage by way of combs, brushes, clips, rubber bands etc. Yes, it is true that sun, wind, and life damages your hair too, but "we" cause most of the damage to our hair by our actions.

After we damage it, we may throw a band aid on it by using proteins and the like to patch up missing cuticles, but by moisturizing and oiling our hair, we are protecting and preserving our hair from the damage by keeping our strands properly lubricated.

This is an interesting topic. I agree with ms-gg on this one. Certain hair products act as a band aid (for example a good oil sheen can make any head of hair look healthy) but for the most part, protecting and preserving out hair with products is not a band aid solution but it's necessary for our hair's maximum potential.

 

[newbeginnings2010]

OP, I'm not sure I understand some of your responses. Are you thinking that we should eventually be able to skip steps at some point down the line in our hair care routine if we aren't just bandaging our hair? Just looking for some clarification. I'm curious.

 

[faithVA]

Maybe you are feeling your own hair isn't as healthy as i could be. I think that would be a better question. If you have a feeling that it may not be then you might want to look at what you are doing to see if there are some changes that need to be made.

I know my hair is not as healthy as it can be but I am taking the steps that I know to get there. It is taking a lot to get it back into a healthy condition. But I am noticing that as I learn more and my hair gets healthier I do have to do less and less with it and I am using fewer products.

Learn your hair, pay attention to your hair and then do the best you know. I believe our hair tells us when we are giving it good care and it is healthy and when we are not.

It's really only a question you can ask yourself and answer for yourself.

 

[Prudent1]

Bnster,
OP I have thought the same thing. The way I understand your question some ppl may be putting a band-aid on unhealthy hair while others are not. For me personally I intentionally do some things in an effort to truly monitor my hair's health others would not b/c I feel like I have put a lot of time and effort into taking care of my hair. Therefore, if it is healthy it should be able to stand up to a few things. I would not ignore the basic things my hair needs to stay healthy but for me, if I'm doing all of the stuff I've learned my hair needs to be healthy and 1 night of sleeping with my scarf off produces a pillow full of hair or 1 instance of me using a brush produces mass damage then That would be masking IMHO. I hope that makes sense to you.

 

[DragonPearl]

I have been both natural and relaxed so here is my opinion.

If our hair is relaxed, we do have to do extra steps for it to look and be healthy otherwise it will just break easily...

If our hair is natural, it may be healthy, but our cultural idea of what is healthy natural black hair can be at odd with reality. If our hair does not look shiny or sheeny due to lots of moisturizers, people assume our hair is not healthy which is not necessarily true. To give you an example, I could wear twists every week without adding any products to my hair, and my hair would grow as much and be as strong as when I add moisturizers to it, but people would look at my unmoisturized twists and say that they're not healthy looking...

 

[Bnster]

Re: Are Our Hair Really Healthy or Are We Putting A Bandage On It?

I had to step out, but I am back now. Thanks for your responses.

No it is not.

Unless you are sick, meaning you have some disorder that makes your hair strands naturally grow out of your hair weak, your hair grows out of your scalp healthy, not missing any cuticles, cortex is not exposed, etc etc. We damage our hair. WE damage it. We damage it by using chemicals, mechanical damage by way of combs, brushes, clips, rubber bands etc. Yes, it is true that sun, wind, and life damages your hair too, but "we" cause most of the damage to our hair by our actions.

After we damage it, we may throw a band aid on it by using proteins and the like to patch up missing cuticles, but by moisturizing and oiling our hair, we are protecting and preserving our hair from the damage by keeping our strands properly lubricated.

I agree that we damage our hair w/ chemicals we put in it. I was thinking all the treatments we do as a mending and rebuilding process. Giving it back the protein, keratin and moisture it was stripped of and maintaining our hair. Finding out what your hair needs with your regimen, should give you a leeway if you don't do it at least one day - not months that to me equates healthy hair. That is what I am thinking, I am disappointed it is not so.

OP, I'm not sure I understand some of your responses. Are you thinking that we should eventually be able to skip steps at some point down the line in our hair care routine if we aren't just bandaging our hair? Just looking for some clarification. I'm curious.

I think that we should be able to skip a couple days without any issues, because we were taking good care of it. I don't think we can ever totally stop our hair care. Maybe it always will have to be the products and the amount of water we have in our strands for the moisture level to be the same.

Maybe you are feeling your own hair isn't as healthy as i could be. I think that would be a better question. If you have a feeling that it may not be then you might want to look at what you are doing to see if there are some changes that need to be made.

I know my hair is not as healthy as it can be but I am taking the steps that I know to get there. It is taking a lot to get it back into a healthy condition. But I am noticing that as I learn more and my hair gets healthier I do have to do less and less with it and I am using fewer products.

Learn your hair, pay attention to your hair and then do the best you know. I believe our hair tells us when we are giving it good care and it is healthy and when we are not.

It's really only a question you can ask yourself and answer for yourself.

Yes I was questioning is my hair really healthy, then thought in general are we kidding ourselves. Why a simple change or not doing something can impact it so quickly, where is the grace?

Bnster,
OP I have thought the same thing. The way I understand your question some ppl may be putting a band-aid on unhealthy hair while others are not. For me personally I intentionally do some things in an effort to truly monitor my hair's health others would not b/c I feel like I have put a lot of time and effort into taking care of my hair. Therefore, if it is healthy it should be able to stand up to a few things. I would not ignore the basic things my hair needs to stay healthy but for me, if I'm doing all of the stuff I've learned my hair needs to be healthy and 1 night of sleeping with my scarf off produces a pillow full of hair or 1 instance of me using a brush produces mass damage then That would be masking IMHO. I hope that makes sense to you.

Exactly, if we are caring it properly we should be able to do something one day without and it would be okay. If there are hair on the pillows that for sure something is wrong. I am more thinking on the line of moisture. Why w/o a scarf, will your hair dry? Why can't it still be moist with the care we are giving it with the air factor taking into consideration. Example, this happens to me - My hair is in my scarf, a wisp of hair get loose during the night. That wisp of hair will be dry in the morning, while my hair hidden by the scar is nice and moist. So does that mean I can't sleep without my scarf ever, even with a silk pillowcase. Does that mean my (our) hair is not healthy when we believed so that it was? It is only healthy if we do XYZ? What is healthy hair?
What is acceptable?

I think healthy hair is hair that is moist and soft, strong and shiny. Able to handle a day w/o care eg moisturize and seal. Able to handle a day w/o putting scarf on your hair while sleeping and not be dry the next day and doesn't break on touch.

 

[newbeginnings2010]

Okay, gotcha. I actually do skip a few days when it comes to moisturizing and sealing. I do this regularly. I only moisturize when my hair feels super dry, and it doesn't usually feel that way as long as I DC overnight every 3-4 weeks.

 

[Bnster]

If we use the same plant analogy, the plant is alive vs our hair which is dead. The plant will store that which it needs and will be able to survive with very little for a short while. The dead hair will need help to look/feel right. I read someone compare our hair to wood...in that a slab of wood is dead how it looks and feels is dependent on what we do to it...so our hair may not be healthy, we are not be putting a bandage on it but we are optimizing it's potential with all that we do, when we slip so does it.

Okay, gotcha. I actually do skip a few days when it comes to moisturizing and sealing. I do this regularly. I only moisturize when my hair feels super dry, and it doesn't usually feel that way as long as I DC overnight every 3-4 weeks.

newbeginnings2010
As Nix08 and others were stating, after a few days if you don't moisturize your hair will be a hot mess if you did not continue your moisture regimen.

I am now thinking, I haven't dealt with my air dry hair for a while (summer time I do this more frequently), I usually straighten once a week and moisturize and seal until next wash day. I did not expect my hair not to be moist the next day. To me one day that shouldn't happen at all.

Changing one step changed everything that I knew how my hair behaved, just like that and made me question my hair health like where did the moisture go?

 

[faithVA]

@newbeginnings2010
As Nix08 and others were stating, after a few days if you don't moisturize your hair will be a hot mess if you did not continue your moisture regimen.

I am now thinking, I haven't dealt with my air dry hair for a while (summer time I do this more frequently), I usually straighten once a week and moisturize and seal until next wash day. I did not expect my hair not to be moist the next day. To me one day that shouldn't happen at all.

Changing one step changed everything that I knew how my hair behaved, just like that and made me question my hair health like where did the moisture go?

I don't think it is as bad as you think it is. It feels different yes but it doesn't mean that it is damaged.

We wash our faces every day and put on some type of moisturizer. And our skin feels good, smooth, soothed and moisturized. Even if I skip this step for 1 day, I can tell the difference in my skin. It doesn't mean my skin is damaged it just feels different. And during the day the environment is taking it's toil on my skin moreso than if I had moisturized it. I don't think that because I conditioned my skin for 3 months straight and i skip a day that I won't be able to tell the difference. I do expect that my skin is healthy enough to handle the days that i skip.

There are some women who could skip the moisturizing step and not tell the difference but not most.

I don't think its any different with your hair. It is still healthy even without that extra step. But the environment is still impacting it and without the outer protection you can tell.

Your hair is probably fine. Don't worry!

 

[Bnster]

This is an interesting topic. I agree with ms-gg on this one. Certain hair products act as a band aid (for example a good oil sheen can make any head of hair look healthy) but for the most part, protecting and preserving out hair with products is not a band aid solution but it's necessary for our hair's maximum potential.

As long as the hair underneath where we are preserving is healthy. I just hope all that I learned on here and my action of care is mending my hair, making it stronger, giving it moisture (which I see with the success with my growth and healthier ends) that my hair is healthier and can withstand minor changes.

I do not want to be coating or preserving unhealthy hair which I hope can't be hidden so something can be done about it.

I want to be able to say I didn't add back protein this week or didn't DC, prepoo or didn't add a certain leave-in and seal, that my hair (your hair) will still come out soft, strong and just healthy.

 

[Bnster]

I don't think it is as bad as you think it is. It feels different yes but it doesn't mean that it is damaged.

We wash our faces every day and put on some type of moisturizer. And our skin feels good, smooth, soothed and moisturized. Even if I skip this step for 1 day, I can tell the difference in my skin. It doesn't mean my skin is damaged it just feels different. And during the day the environment is taking it's toil on my skin moreso than if I had moisturized it. I don't think that because I conditioned my skin for 3 months straight and i skip a day that I won't be able to tell the difference. I do expect that my skin is healthy enough to handle the days that i skip.

There are some women who could skip the moisturizing step and not tell the difference but not most.

I don't think its any different with your hair. It is still healthy even without that extra step. But the environment is still impacting it and without the outer protection you can tell.

Your hair is probably fine. Don't worry!

faithVA thanks it was making me wonder about that and was it an illusion all this time about the health of the hair and regimen/products being put on and into it.

 

[Aviah]

Aviah
Aye, I like the plant comparison, so if the plant doesn't get water and sun it will die and shrivel up. Our hair is something like that. But with a plant it will take a few days or weeks b4 any effect on it. This was like the next day, I felt this way, just because I left some of my routine steps out. Again is truly healthy. What is acceptable, 1 day, couple of days, a week b4 we see a difference?



Imani
So I am not alone on this thought.

Its all relative- some plant need soaking whereas others only need a little water now and then. Doesn't make one necessarily more healthy than another, those are just its needs. Depending on what you do to it, flat iron, relax, color, etc it may need more help. Now that I flat iron more often I've stepped up the protein-because it needs more to remain healthy. Just like some grass grows just fine whereas others need fertilizer and more attention, you know? However,I do see what you mean.

 

[Curlykale]

I sometimes think that cosmetic products are a bandage as they make your hair look nice for a while but they do not work on the long term and they don't make your hair stronger, even if for a month. I see them like make up (i.e. silicone serum).

Nutritious and natural products or oils penetrate the hair, aminoacids and protein make it stronger, so I consider them "food".

The fact that our hair can seem weak and uncooperative when we leave a step out... I see a cause in the fact that the context where we live is not always ideal for our hair. We do not live where our ancestors used to live, the climate has changed, we don't bath in clean and mineral rich rivers (chlorine, a harsh sun and pollution is all we get lol) and the avocados we eat are refrigerated and they fly from the opposite corner of the world, they loose part of their nutrition while reaching us...

... I definitely see your point: sometimes I see my hair, my health, the people and things I love, like a fragile garden that I protect and cultivate. But they thrive when I do, so I consider my hair healthy when it "reacts" to what I do (by not breaking) and when it grows. If your hair immediately breaks then somethign can be done about it... if your hair gets dry before, it is sort of waiting for food.

LOL forgive my hippiness, I got all poetic

 

[babyhurr4]

In my opinion, I believe what we put in our bodies contribute to the true health of our hair, or lack of. Beauty products, to me, is just the icing on the cake to give it that healthy looking finish or shine. Optimal hair health comes from optimal care and healthiness of the body. Everything else we add to it is just upkeep, I believe.

 

[PinkPebbles]

This is a great thread!

My stylist told me that I don't need to DC every week. Once or twice a month is good enough. I gave her a blank stare on that comment!

I DC weekly b/c I'm afraid that I might have a set-back. However, when I go see my stylist she doesn't give me a DC, she just uses a rinse out conditioner. My hair stays soft, bouncy, and shiny until my next shampoo.

So I understand what the OP is saying. When your hair is healthy you can eliminate some steps or simplify your regimen.

 

[faithVA]

So I understand what the OP is saying. When your hair is healthy you can eliminate some steps or simplify your regimen.

I agree. I think when your hair is healthy your regimen can be very simple. Wasn't it CelinaStar (sorry if I don't get that completely right) whose regimen is to cowash and braid it up and sometimes she puts on a leave-in?

I know there are other ladies on this board that have very short and simple regimens. And a lot of the ladies with really long hair do very little to their hair.

 

[Vashti]

Interesting question. I found some info on here many months ago that made me think along these lines as well but maybe in a different way. It was about using products with silicones. In the beginning of my journey I had a lot of hair products I used everyday that had silicones and I think it tricked me into thinking that my hair was immediately getting healthier when it only seemed that way. So I read a post here where one lady had taken silicones out of her regimen and went all natural. This helped because she was then able to feel and see what her hair was really like instead of feeling the silkiness and smoothness of the silicones - which give the illusion of healthy, silky hair. She said it felt different/less soft and took some getting used to but she preferred it that way.

So I decided to do the same thing and for a while used all natural products and no silicones and my hair, too, felt different. More bare and drier feeling for a while. Also, around August I started getting breakage at the ends since they were old and abused. The silicones helped hide the bad condition they were in but they finally came off anyway. I thought I was having a setback when all it was was old abused hair that needed to come off.

So I learned that certain haircare products give the illusion of health but if you don't know how your own hair actually is supposed to look like or feel you can be fooled. I've since added back one product with silicones to my regimen for the look and feel of silkiness when I want to wear an out style but with better knowledge of how to use it. The all-natural stint helped me understand my hair and its needs better and they aren't complex - a good deep conditioning on a regular basis, daily moisture and a little oil to keep it strong, lustrous and to keep it from breaking. I have also learned from the longer haired ladies to try to keep things simple.

Don't know if that adds to the discussion Bnster. But that's been my experience.

 

[Nonie]

Bnster another thing to consider is the human body can survive with little or the wrong nourishment for a long time. And some people can abuse their bodies and live to be old while others may not do it to an extent worthy of being called abuse and yet succumb to disease caused by that behavior and die early. So as Aviah said, it's relative and what one hair can get away with, another may not.

And while one can repair damage in living things--like disease can be reversed, a dying plant can be revived--in dead things like hair, once damage happens, we can only mask it to make it look good...but as ms-gg said, it doesn't grow out of our heads damaged so just like it pays to nourish and care for your body to keep it healthy from the get go and you may live the healthiest possible life for that body you were given, caring for your hair as best as you can will also let you enjoy the healthiest hair you can in an imperfect world.

And just like there are people who need to watch what they eat 24/7 to keep their shape and others can cheat on their diet here and there and still keep their shape, you can't go by what others do to decide what's OK for you. It's a gamble and it's personal, and so it's just a matter of how daring do you want to be with your hair. Remember, it cannot be repaired once damaged; just masked and bandaged if you want to hold onto it. Or you can just go back to square one and try again. And for one person, it could be one straightening session that causes the damage, while for another it could take tons of abuse to get there. Bottom line is, damage isn't the end of the world...and it won't kill you. You hair grows all the time, and it may take some trial and error to find out what is the best and most practical regimen for your hair. During that time, the hair that was going through the experimentation period might require a lot of bandaging, because you were still trying to find out what is best for it alone--not what some Youtuber said was good for her hair--so probably made a few mistakes. But as new hair grows into a world where you are armed with experience of what works, you'll begin to feel comfortable about what you do with your hair and will know how to create an environment that keeps it as close to the state in which it grew out of your head.

So right now you may be feeling overwhelmed coz of all the info coming to you from all sides and you feel like if you miss one thing, you're doomed. But learn the basics about hair, and what it needs, and then listen to your hair...an in time you'll find haircare isn't as stressful as it may seem when you're still trying to find your way.

 

[Aveena]

I was thinking the exact same thing this morning. My hair is never healthy :-( it is dry and brittle in it's best condition. It. may. look. good. But if I wear it out 2-3 days in a row I'm set back. Pin it too tight - set back. Wind blows - set back. *sigh*

just being honest.

eta: my bandade is henna. Without it my hair could not survive in the elements. erplexed

 

[Bnster]

Thanks for all your expressed views on this topic which open my (and I hope our) mind on the concept of healthy hair.

I agree and lean on that our hair should be able to go without your daily routines without adverse affects. If it doesn't behave to reasonable expectations then start investigating and troubleshooting.

Vashti stated, a lady posted that she had learned that her natural hair was drier but it was still healthy " I read a post here where one lady had taken silicones out of her regimen and went all natural. This helped because she was then able to feel and see what her hair was really like instead of feeling the silkiness and smoothness of the silicones - which give the illusion of healthy, silky hair. She said it felt different/less soft and took some getting used to but she preferred it that way."

To me that held a missing (now obvious) key, the state of my hair was different to what I was used to, I am no longer bone straight (I recently self relaxed - more like part texlax). When I took steps out of my regimen and expected my hair to behave as normal but didn't cause my regimen does not fit the bill anymore cause my hair structure change and will require something else.

I do think though, there is a possibility of bandaging, to fight back, we just have to be on guard that this does not happen to us.

Nonie not stressed but very grateful for the feedback. It is a reminder, to do what is best for yourself and what works for your head of hair, body, etc.
I love discovering my hair and as long as I am not bandaging, my efforts are well worth it.

 

[ActionActress]

I have been both natural and relaxed so here is my opinion.

If our hair is relaxed, we do have to do extra steps for it to look and be healthy otherwise it will just break easily...

If our hair is natural, it may be healthy, but our cultural idea of what is healthy natural black hair can be at odd with reality. If our hair does not look shiny or sheeny due to lots of moisturizers, people assume our hair is not healthy which is not necessarily true. To give you an example, I could wear twists every week without adding any products to my hair, and my hair would grow as much and be as strong as when I add moisturizers to it, but people would look at my unmoisturized twists and say that they're not healthy looking...

I am running on a slightly different track here...

This is key to understanding that our hair is NOT harder to take care of. If one is doing something to Afro hair to make it do things that aren't "natural" Then yes, you are trying to get your hair to jump through hoops to meet the criteria of accepted hair.

However, since we assume straighter hair as easier...what if...just what if Afro hair types were dominant, and straighter haired people were trying their best to go with texture, they would probably complain that their hair is hard to do, since they are doing something--whatever that maybe to get like an Afro. (AND cost more money like how we complain it cost more money for us) So when we let the entire planet know that "our hair is harder to take care of" <--Not! What exactly do we mean?

Think on this----> i.e. If I am doing twists, it may take me 45 min tops---but then guess what?! I am done for the next several days, so is the care of Afro types actually harder?? or easier being that I don't have to touch it for the next several days. I think our perception sometimes needs tweeking sometimes.