I Am Giving Up... (newbie)

[Ms Red]

Well, I finally registered on this forum after weeks of observation and finally, a lot of self disgust.

Less than 1 year ago I had thick, shoulder length, 4a hair that had been relaxed for 5 years. Before that I was all natural and only pressed my hair. Well, during and after college I began doing my own perms (boxes) and made the mistake of consistently overlapping my perms, not shampooing/conditioning & moisturizing like I should and using heat every other day. I ended up with 4 inches of split ends.

After moving to Philadelphia in June, I found a hairstylist in September 2004. She talked me into chopping 5 inches of my hair off for a "new start." In tears, I remember leaving the hair salon with hair that barely reached my earlobes and was cut into an angled bob hairstyle. From this point on, my hair nightmare begins. From the period of October 2004 until March 2005 I wore sew-in weaves for 1-2 months at a time to try and get back some of my length. This was to NO AVAIL because my hairstylist made it her mission to cut my hair every time (even when I said only a trim) and I could never retain any growth.

From reading this forum, I found out that I was not washing/co-washing & moisturizing my hair enough. I did not do enough protein reconstructors or protective styles. And when my hair was "breathing" for the weaves for a month or so at a time, I used heat almost every day because I did not know how to wrap my hair.

I am now at my breaking point. I got my last relaxer last week after having a sew-in for 5 weeks. While in the bowl at the shop, the water turned FREEZING COLD and the stylist had trouble getting the perm out. The owner ended up bringing hot water to the bowl from the bathroom!!!!!!!!! Although I thought that it was okay after my touchup, yesterday, as I was combing my hair, I noticed large white flakes in my hair. This could not be from dandruff, my hair was washed 1 week to the day!!! I'm thinking that it has to be from the perm not getting washed out properly. So far I haven't had any noticeable hair loss but as soon as I get home from the gym today, I must wash my hair with neutralizing shampoo and begin my regimen (if you could call it a regimen). MY hair is short and the ends are damaged-- even with all of the trimming. I don't know what to do at this point. The crown is 5 inces, the sides are 4 inches and some parts are uneven. Most of my hair reaches beneath my earlobes but a couple of inches shy of my collarbone/shoulders. Should I buy and try Surge? Any product recommendations? I am willing to try anything, including transitioning, but I need to know how to take care of my 4A hair so this never happens again. To tell the truth I feel lost without a stylist but I don't trust her. With my last relaxer, she pulled it though to the ends of my (already damaged) hair and when I yelled and asked what she was doing she replied "Girl, you NEED it!"

Someone help!!!!!! Please!

*cupcake*

 

[LDebagoria]

DON'T GIVE UP!! Girl, I went through the same kinda crap with a stylist I'd had for YEARS! She always said I needed a trim, which equaled a cut to her! After switching salons last November, an inexperienced stylist relaxed my ends, and I had breakage like never before in my entire LIFE!!
When that started, I stumbled across this site and it's saved my hair's struggling life!! I started cracking down on moisturizing and wearing my silk scarf to bed. I also learned here that it's OKAY to wear protective styles ESPECIALLY in the wintertime, and it's also okay to stretch my relaxers out (my friends and family are all about their 4-6 week relaxers!) I decided that I'm going to wear extension braids for this year to give my hair a REST!!! I haven't relaxed since November, and I plan on getting my next one in May, so only two relaxers per year.
With my being more protective with my hair and stuffing myself with vitamins and water, after four weeks of having braids, the woman who braids my hair said I had an INCH of new growth! Also, I only have shedding now, NOT breakage!! So, breathe a sigh of relief, 'cause you can save your own hair with this site!!

 

[Poohbear]

Speaking defeat will never get you anywhere!!! Be encouraged!!!

 

[Healthb4Length]

first of all. It will be okay! Don't give up! second thing to do...find another stylist Asap...don't pay someone your hard earned money if SHE does not listen to your concerns...big no no! I think that you should try an Aphogee treatment, follow the instructions precisely as it says on the box. follow up with a moisturizing treatment like silk elements afterwards. Do Aphogee treatments once every 6 weeks but alternate between conditioning and protein treatments every week. I also think that you should try doing co-washes at least once a week and find a good moisturizer that works for you. I personally like oils and butters but Elasta makes a really good moisturizer called recovery...it's light not greasy and is very affordable, elasta also makes mango butter which smells heavenly. I think that you should stay away from weaves for a minute and try protective styles such as buns (not tight!), braidouts/twistouts...they really help...and if all else fails go to this site you will find a knowledge of info here to get your hair back on track www.growafrohairlong.com! Be patient and every thing will work out just fine!

 

[nurseN98]

First off, NEVER GO TO THAT STYLIST AGAIN. I mean it, leave her alone. There are a lot of things you will learn how to do by yourself here but if you do go, please go to another one. Secondly, when my hair started breaking, that's when I decided to transition. But you don't have to if you don't want to. That is your decision to make and you will find support either way you go here. I think you should do a good protein treatment. Do a search on protein treatments. Aphogee is the only heavy one I can think of right now.

BTW, what is your regimen? If you post it, we can make suggestions based off what you already have going.

 

[Ms Red]

First off, a big thank you to NurseN98, Alli77, Poohbear and L Debagoria :notworthy

Yall are totally right-- I cannot go back to that stylist. I've realized that she was more interested in making her $65 on an Affirm perm than the health of my hair. Right now, I HAVE NO REGIMEN. Please give me some ideas on products and styles that I can wear in the meantime. These are the products that I've purchased so that I can get on track to learning how to do my own hair:

~Nexxus Therappe & Humectress
~Nexxus Emergencee
~ApHogee Reconstructor & Balancing Moisturizer
~Various Oils: carrot, tea tree, DooGro Anti-Itch (no mineral oil or pertroleum)
~Suave Milk and Honey Shampoo & Conditioner

This is all that I have for now. I will be washing/conditioning my hair tonight (first try at a regimen) and will take all of your advice on using the ApHogee treatment and deep conditioner. Then I'll wear the protective bun. Any help that you all can give will be appreciated and taken to heart! I am so glad that I found this forum and found the courage to finally take control of my hair. I knew for months that something wasn't right with that salon and stylist and did not go with my gut instinct. Every visit (twice a month) she INSISTED on cutting 1.5-2 inches off. When I wanted to stretch my relaxers to 12 weeks, she chided me saying that the 2 different textures would break all of my hair off (all I wanted was HEALTHY hair again). And the last time, when all I wanted was for her to press my 3 months of new growth, she convinced me to perm it.

I feel stronger though and I need to start making my own hair decisions and let go of the weaves and salons.

PS. Should I wear the protective bun to work (given my corporate profession and their lack of understanding black hair), or get a wig? Also, I don't know what styles I can do on my short short hair.

*cupcake*

 

[Ashee]

Hey there Cupcake!!
Step One: HANG IN THERE & DON'T GIVE UP! Your hair needs you now more than ever...
Step Two: If possible, FIND ANOTHER STYLIST or take control of your own hair! Anystylists who doesn't listen to the conserns of their client & at least know the basics of chemicals then they shouldn't be doing your hair.
Step Three: Continue to moisturize, deep con, treat with protein, & take care of your health. These steps will help you get things back in motion!

You're just at a wallwallbash and you will get over this small kink in your journey! Remember, what happens on the inside will eventually show up on the outside! So try to stress less about the damage & begin the recovery stage.
WELCOME

 

[Ashee]

first of all. It will be okay! Don't give up! second thing to do...find another stylist Asap...don't pay someone your hard earned money if SHE does not listen to your concerns...big no no! I think that you should try an Aphogee treatment, follow the instructions precisely as it says on the box. follow up with a moisturizing treatment like silk elements afterwards. Do Aphogee treatments once every 6 weeks but alternate between conditioning and protein treatments every week. I also think that you should try doing co-washes at least once a week and find a good moisturizer that works for you. I personally like oils and butters but Elasta makes a really good moisturizer called recovery...it's light not greasy and is very affordable, elasta also makes mango butter which smells heavenly. I think that you should stay away from weaves for a minute and try protective styles such as buns (not tight!), braidouts/twistouts...they really help...and if all else fails go to this site you will find a knowledge of info here to get your hair back on track www.growafrohairlong.com! Be patient and every thing will work out just fine!

Yeah Alli!!!!
DOWN WITH BAD STYLISTS!!!!!!

 

[Ashee]

PS. Should I wear the protective bun to work (given my corporate profession and their lack of understanding black hair), or get a wig? Also, I don't know what styles I can do on my short short hair.

*cupcake*

A lot of corporate companies are begining to allow people to wear twists & braids to work. Their main concern is the neatness & appearance of the style. Try to stay away from the huge braids & the Goddess styles

You can get a wig for those times when your hair is just not cooperating or you may just want a different look!

But definitely look into your style options. Also, check with others around your job & see how they style & ask your boss for the hair/dress codes for the company. Just to cover your back!

 

[Poohbear]

To help you find a regime, I would suggest checking out the features of the month and see what products and techniques they use to grow their hair. Hope that helps!!!

 

[Mariaat40]

Right now, I HAVE NO REGIMEN. Please give me some ideas on products and styles that I can wear in the meantime. These are the products that I've purchased so that I can get on track to learning how to do my own hair:

~Nexxus Therappe & Humectress
~Nexxus Emergencee
~ApHogee Reconstructor & Balancing Moisturizer
~Various Oils: carrot, tea tree, DooGro Anti-Itch (no mineral oil or pertroleum)
~Suave Milk and Honey Shampoo & Conditioner


PS. Should I wear the protective bun to work (given my corporate profession and their lack of understanding black hair), or get a wig? Also, I don't know what styles I can do on my short short hair.

*cupcake*

Many of us have been where you are now Cupcake. I certainly was. Sounds like you've got a good start with your products. But it really is trial and error. I found that certain products worked really well on my hair and others didn't. And it didn't matter whether it was raved about on the board or not. Find out works for you. Don'tspeakdefeat has some great information about making buns with short hair and just general care on her site. Good luck!

 

[Enchantmt]

First, welcome to LHCF!! As you can see, the ladies here are very knowledgeable and supportive and will help you get your hair on track.

I agree with protein treatments and keeping your hair moisturized. My favoritre moisturizer is bbd stretch reconstructor cream. Its very good at stopping breakage and helping you retain length. You can find more information about it here: http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=52309&highlight=bbd+stretch


If your hair is dry you will need to wash more often to keep moisture in it too, conditioner washes will be best. Get some inexpensive conditioners like VO5 or Suave to help with this. If you get build up where you notice a film on your hair, try an apple cider vinegar rinse to help remove it.

You may want to try rollersetting or wrapping for a while to style your hair. Wrapping is very easy, you just basically use your head as the roller and wrap your hair around it. It doesnt have to be perfect but you want to smooth the hair as much as possible to control your texture. If you need more height do a roller wrap. Section a circle of hair in your crown, clip it out the way. Then wrapp the remaining hair around your head and secure with a scarf, a rectangular one you can wrap around your head, leaving the crown exposed. That way you can then add the rollers w/o disturbing the rest of your hair.

There is also someone who has wrapping instructions in her album. I can't remember who but if I find it I will link it.

You sound like you know what to do, you just werent confident in your decision because the stylist was the "professional". The ladies here can tell you that doesnt mean much. Many people here take care of their own hair because of damage from a "professional". You're on the right track now, tho. You just have to take care of your hair as it grows and it will be long and healthy before you know it. Good luck!

 

[Lorraine]

Please don't return to your stylist. She does not know how to maintain your tresses and it's clear. I am sure that some of the local PA ladies can recommend someone. I have gone through nearly everything you have:

"Stylist" dyed my hair blue instead of black
Put glue in weaves in my hair for two years
Hot curled my hair everyday for a year
Bleached my hair too blond by accident

Don't be afraid to make mistakes and try again. Take it as lessons learned. Trust me... it will grow back. Just alter your regimen and the people you allow to come in contact with your hair. Best of luck to you CupCake.

 

[hopeful]

First, welcome to LHCF!! ...
I agree with protein treatments and keeping your hair moisturized. My favoritre moisturizer is bbd stretch reconstructor cream. Its very good at stopping breakage and helping you retain length. You can find more information about it here: http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=52309&highlight=bbd+stretch


Good luck!

Just checked the Irby's website and they said the bbd products would no longer be available on-line as of 4/10/05. Does anyone know where else it can be purchased on-line?

 

[Enchantmt]

Just checked the Irby's website and they said the bbd products would no longer be available on-line as of 4/10/05. Does anyone know where else it can be purchased on-line?

I think you can call them direct and order it.

 

[lthomas1]

You have to take care of your hair and stop going to that salon. A stylist burned offf the length of my hair a few years ago, and that is when I decide never to go back and learn to self relax my own hair. I have never had any problems since. Your hair can recover with a little TLC. Just keep it well moisturized and conditioned.

 

[LDebagoria]

Nexxus Emergencee is a lifesaver!! That and a heating cap made my hair beautiful! Although I have run into something new, the Redken Extreme line. Its for damaged hair. I don't really like the shampoo and conditioner, but I love their Deep Fuel treatments. It's a little box with five little tubes of treatment in each. At first you think: "I paid HOW much for this!?" But one treatment lasts 14 washes! So it's worth it!

 

[IntelligenceisBeautiful]

Hey Cupcake,

Welcome to the forum, I was in a bad hair predicament when I found this site and belkieve me my hair did a complete turn-around, and so will yours!!! Be encouraged you have now begun your journey to longer, thicker, healthier hair.

 

[brickhouse]

Don't give up cupcake. Your hair will be healthy just wait and see. Protective styles will be your friend. I especially like the phony pony using the baggie method. I have gained so much knowledge and my hair is the longest it has ever been. You will need a good protein treatment. I prefer Nexxus Emergencee because my hair hates Aphogee. It made it break off and I did not manipulate my hair at all when I used it. I have several hair books and I will be posting some info but I have to do taxes between now and tommorrow. Hang in there.

 

[KathyMay]

Sweetie don't give up the fight! Leave those stylists alone and you will be okay. Last year around this time I wanted to give up and cut all my hair off but I got focused and realized that my hair didnt get messed up until I started going to the stylists. Before I started going to them I keep my hair braided and it was growing nicely but I got tried of braids went to the salon and my hair was a mess. One year later all my damaged hair has grown back (almost collarbone length) I drink 2 liters of water EVERYDAY no excuses, taking vits and using SURGE, WGO and GLOVER'S MANE. Don't give up, your hair will grow back before you know it.

 

[tryn2growmyhair]

Well, I finally registered on this forum after weeks of observation and finally, a lot of self disgust.

Less than 1 year ago I had thick, shoulder length, 4a hair that had been relaxed for 5 years. Before that I was all natural and only pressed my hair. Well, during and after college I began doing my own perms (boxes) and made the mistake of consistently overlapping my perms, not shampooing/conditioning & moisturizing like I should and using heat every other day. I ended up with 4 inches of split ends.

After moving to Philadelphia in June, I found a hairstylist in September 2004. She talked me into chopping 5 inches of my hair off for a "new start." In tears, I remember leaving the hair salon with hair that barely reached my earlobes and was cut into an angled bob hairstyle. From this point on, my hair nightmare begins. From the period of October 2004 until March 2005 I wore sew-in weaves for 1-2 months at a time to try and get back some of my length. This was to NO AVAIL because my hairstylist made it her mission to cut my hair every time (even when I said only a trim) and I could never retain any growth.

From reading this forum, I found out that I was not washing/co-washing & moisturizing my hair enough. I did not do enough protein reconstructors or protective styles. And when my hair was "breathing" for the weaves for a month or so at a time, I used heat almost every day because I did not know how to wrap my hair.

I am now at my breaking point. I got my last relaxer last week after having a sew-in for 5 weeks. While in the bowl at the shop, the water turned FREEZING COLD and the stylist had trouble getting the perm out. The owner ended up bringing hot water to the bowl from the bathroom!!!!!!!!! Although I thought that it was okay after my touchup, yesterday, as I was combing my hair, I noticed large white flakes in my hair. This could not be from dandruff, my hair was washed 1 week to the day!!! I'm thinking that it has to be from the perm not getting washed out properly. So far I haven't had any noticeable hair loss but as soon as I get home from the gym today, I must wash my hair with neutralizing shampoo and begin my regimen (if you could call it a regimen). MY hair is short and the ends are damaged-- even with all of the trimming. I don't know what to do at this point. The crown is 5 inces, the sides are 4 inches and some parts are uneven. Most of my hair reaches beneath my earlobes but a couple of inches shy of my collarbone/shoulders. Should I buy and try Surge? Any product recommendations? I am willing to try anything, including transitioning, but I need to know how to take care of my 4A hair so this never happens again. To tell the truth I feel lost without a stylist but I don't trust her. With my last relaxer, she pulled it though to the ends of my (already damaged) hair and when I yelled and asked what she was doing she replied "Girl, you NEED it!"

Someone help!!!!!! Please!

*cupcake*

First things, first, please go and buy the neutralizing shampoo that GOES WITH THE RELAXER that they used on your head and wash your hair IMMEDIATELY. You do not want to slowly cause permanent damage to your scalp by leaving any relaxer in. There is a scary thread on this board of a woman who is scalp is not only bald but SCARRED from not having a neutralizing shampoo. She did make some mistakes and it was an extreme example, but it still made me want to go natural. Barring that, I decided to always have neutralizing shampoo on hand and I have not regretted it. Please ask the salon if you dont know which relaxer they used on your head. (A big no-no if this is the case. Make sure that you know what they are using on your head. This is not as easy as it sounds. Another thread on this board concerned a stylist who did a switcheroo.)

One of the TOP things that has helped to grow my hair was discarding lax or scissor happy stylists. I am very quick to drop a bad stylist and that has saved my hair. Be assertive and find others. There is NO REASON for the water to turn cold when you are getting a relaxer washed out. That salon is straight up ghetto.

One the most frustrating aspects of this search for me is that I have had to spend lots of money trying products. I am still trying products, because what works for everyone does not work for me. Surge and S-Curl make my scalp itch and I did not like the fact that Elasta QP Recovery's main oil is mineral oil-- it felt like I was putting a plastic coating on my hair. Cathy Howse's moisturizer, which has recovery's texture but smells better and it's base is olive oil, and her conditioner recipe work well for me.

My most important recommendation is to look at product ingredients and get to know ingredients that work well for you and ingredients that are not so great for you.

Please dont give up and try to be patient. It took time for your hair to get into the damaged condition that it did and it will take time to repair it.

 

[SUPER SWEET]

Sorry to hear this. I'm a PHILLY LHCF lady and I know its SUPER hard to find a stylist here. I have been really progressing is with buns and less salon visits. Feel free to PM with any Philly questions.

You've got really great products, so youre off to a great start.

 

[YummyC]

BIG HUGS TO CUPCAKE
DONT GIVE UP
I agree with the other ladies, get a new stylist. It will take a while before you start seeing progress but believe me it will happen.
Do the protein treatments!!! it will help.

 

[amy1234]

sorry to hear about your tribulations, I would recommend getting on a high protein diet if you want fast results. And also be consistent with a hair care regimen. Don't worry, it can only go up from here

 

[Ms Red]

Wow! Thanks ladies on the support and quick replies!!! All of you are right, I will never go back to that stylist or salon.

I took your (combined) advice and bought the neutralizing shampoo that went along with the relaxer. I used that, did a protein treatment and a deep condition. I let my hair air dry to avoid heat and now I'm wearing the protective bun.

A lot of you ladies have great fotki hair albums and so far I have gotten alot of hair ideas from you and I'm still searching for my regimen. I only hope that I can become a hair success like so many of you.

Although discouraged, as one of you ladies said earlier--it can only go up from here. Please continue to share your product\hairstyle\regimen ideas, I am all ears.

~cupcake~

 

[Healthb4Length]

A lot of corporate companies are begining to allow people to wear twists & braids to work. Their main concern is the neatness & appearance of the style. Try to stay away from the huge braids & the Goddess styles

You can get a wig for those times when your hair is just not cooperating or you may just want a different look!

But definitely look into your style options. Also, check with others around your job & see how they style & ask your boss for the hair/dress codes for the company. Just to cover your back!

yeah, a law went into effect in the 90s basically saying that a company cannot discriminate against a worker because of his or her race, creed, or religion...and also hair. Hair is considered part of one's racial feature or religious following...don't quote me but it's something to this effect. Basically if someone harass you about your hair then you call a lawyer asap!

 

[Healthb4Length]

First off, a big thank you to NurseN98, Alli77, Poohbear and L Debagoria :notworthy

Yall are totally right-- I cannot go back to that stylist. I've realized that she was more interested in making her $65 on an Affirm perm than the health of my hair. Right now, I HAVE NO REGIMEN. Please give me some ideas on products and styles that I can wear in the meantime. These are the products that I've purchased so that I can get on track to learning how to do my own hair:

~Nexxus Therappe & Humectress
~Nexxus Emergencee
~ApHogee Reconstructor & Balancing Moisturizer
~Various Oils: carrot, tea tree, DooGro Anti-Itch (no mineral oil or pertroleum)
~Suave Milk and Honey Shampoo & Conditioner

This is all that I have for now. I will be washing/conditioning my hair tonight (first try at a regimen) and will take all of your advice on using the ApHogee treatment and deep conditioner. Then I'll wear the protective bun. Any help that you all can give will be appreciated and taken to heart! I am so glad that I found this forum and found the courage to finally take control of my hair. I knew for months that something wasn't right with that salon and stylist and did not go with my gut instinct. Every visit (twice a month) she INSISTED on cutting 1.5-2 inches off. When I wanted to stretch my relaxers to 12 weeks, she chided me saying that the 2 different textures would break all of my hair off (all I wanted was HEALTHY hair again). And the last time, when all I wanted was for her to press my 3 months of new growth, she convinced me to perm it.

I feel stronger though and I need to start making my own hair decisions and let go of the weaves and salons.

PS. Should I wear the protective bun to work (given my corporate profession and their lack of understanding black hair), or get a wig? Also, I don't know what styles I can do on my short short hair.

*cupcake*

The products that you have listed are very good! Good start! If they work for you then stick with them...don't pick up bad habits and become a product junkie like myself and so many others...I won't name names ! I would use these products
~Nexxus Therappe & Humectress
~Nexxus Emergencee
~ApHogee Reconstructor & Balancing Moisturizer

for my deep treatments and hardcore treatments. BTW I find that the moisturizing conditioner that comes with the Aphogee does nothing for my hair! You can use another one other than the one provided by aphogee. I would use these products for light conditioning treatments

Various Oils: carrot, tea tree, DooGro Anti-Itch (no mineral oil or pertroleum)
~Suave Milk and Honey Shampoo & Conditioner

the oils are good for sealing in the moisture. I make sure that my ends are ALWAYS oiled (the last 2 Inches of my ends) this will help you retain lenght.

I think once you combine all of this you can get a great regime that works for you. My regime is I shampoo (moisturizing) and condition twice a week. I do a deep treatment only once a week. I do a conditioner wash once or twice a week depending on my moods. I use only oils and butters on my hair and I do buns (oil ends before tucking into a bun) braidouts and knot outs. I hope this helps and continue to update us with your progress.

Tips to remember:
1. ALWAYS moisturize your ends (whether you do a protective style or not)
2. After you do a hardcore treatment like Aphogee always follow up with a
moisturizing conditioner.
3. Be careful not to overdo the protein (do Aphogee once every 5-6 weeks)
4. Most protective styles will help get your hair healthy again
5. Stay away from heat appliance-flat irons, blowdryers
6. If you don't have one already, invest in a table top or dome dryer for your
conditioning treatments.
7. If all else fails, do the crown and glory method...it always works...here's
the link www.growafrohairlong.com
8. Remember that whatever happens to your hair, it will always grow back
nice and healthy if you follow the tips and advice from the ladies on this
site.





www.fotki.com/nubian7
password:hair

 

[Ashee]

yeah, a law went into effect in the 90s basically saying that a company cannot discriminate against a worker because of his or her race, creed, or religion...and also hair. Hair is considered part of one's racial feature or religious following...don't quote me but it's something to this effect. Basically if someone harass you about your hair then you call a lawyer asap!

Yes, but messy dreads/braids should not be allowed...
I think for the most part it's neatness that will help the big wigs to welcome the style! You'll even get compliments when you keep the tresses tight!

 

[Healthb4Length]

Yes, but messy dreads/braids should not be allowed...
I think for the most part it's neatness that will help the big wigs to welcome the style! You'll even get compliments when you keep the tresses tight!

ITA! There's nothing worse than jacked up dreds or natural styles. Those people who do this should go straight to jail cause with all the style options for naturals these days there is no excuse to walk around looking like you got a bird's nest on top of your head!

 

[Ashee]

ITA! There's nothing worse than jacked up dreds or natural styles. Those people who do this should go straight to jail cause with all the style options for naturals these days there is no excuse to walk around looking like you got a bird's nest on top of your head!

Especially not in corporate america!
We've got enough "battles to fight there", no need to add grooming!