Question about lye relaxers and damage to scalp

[SleekandBouncy]

I've been told that lye is gentler on the hair, but harsher on the scalp, hence the burning.
My question is this, if it's harsher on the scalp doesn't that risk the long term health of your hair? If you scalp is damaged, can't that stunt growth since hair grows on the scalp?
Will the long term use of a lye relaxer even on a based scalp eventually lead to damaged or shocked hair follicles and doesn't the burning suggest it's hurting the scalp more than the no lye?
Any feedback would be appreciated. My mother and I have long contemplated trying lye again (my last attempt yrs ago resulted in underprocessed hair).

 

[favorc]

My opinion is that damage hair you can always cut off if a relxer screws it up. But if your your scalp is damage, to me that means u will have a very hard time trying to get your hair hair back into shape. I had I lye relaxer once (dudley) and it would burn my scalp like no other. even when my scalp was based and I avoided sodas it still would burn so i switched back ot no lye.

 

[SleekandBouncy]

My opinion is that damage hair you can always cut off if a relxer screws it up. But if your your scalp is damage, to me that means u will have a very hard time trying to get your hair hair back into shape. I had I lye relaxer once (dudley) and it would burn my scalp like no other. even when my scalp was based and I avoided sodas it still would burn so i switched back ot no lye.

That's what I was thinking. The scalp is part of your body permanently, it's wear the hair grows from so if that's screwed up it's over.
Then again, I could be wrong, but it just seems like if lye is admittedly harsher on the scalp then aren't I risking permanent growth damage.

 

[favorc]

I think u would be risking scalp damage. I read in a black hair mag one time that if the scalp is damage the roots and all are damage, so the hair will grow back way thin and stuff-or it my not grow back at all. your hair can always grow back, but now your scalp.

 

[Allandra]

Years ago (way before good ole internet hair groups), I used no lye relaxers. Once I found out more about them, I made the switch over to lye relaxers (years ago). With no lye relaxers, my hair always looked dry. No lye relaxers are gentler on the scalp, but they are not good on the hair. Lye relaxer are a bit harsher on the scalp, but they are better on the hair. I always have my scalp and hairline (all the way around) based well prior to getting a relaxer touch up since I've been using lye relaxers. I know one thing. I will never go back to a no lye relaxer.

 

[Artemis]

I never burn when using lye...I base like a fiend, but I understand what you're saying.

I think that's one of the reasons to stretch out the relaxer touch-ups. Providing you're taking great care of your scalp anyways in between, I don't believe it will be a problem. In between touch-ups (anywhere from 8-12 weeks) I use scalp care products (jojoba oil, keracare dry/itchy scalp s & c, essential oils for massaging) to make sure that my scalp and therefore my hair remain healthy. I also take vitamin supplements and drink buckets of water. I monitor my scalp's condition, and if it is irritated and not healthy enough for a relaxer, I wait until it is .

If you have hair or scalp issues, you really need to resolve them PRIOR to a relaxer application anyways, whether it's lye or no-lye.

 

[gone_fishing]

Can someone explain why No-lye is harsher on the hair and Lye is harsher on the scalp. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around why one would be worse on the scalp but not equally as bad on the hair?

Thanks.

 

[MzRhonda]

Years ago (way before good ole internet hair groups), I used no lye relaxers. Once I found out more about them, I made the switch over to lye relaxers (years ago). With no lye relaxers, my hair always looked dry. No lye relaxers are gentler on the scalp, but they are not good on the hair. Lye relaxer are a bit harsher on the scalp, but they are better on the hair. I always have my scalp and hairline (all the way around) based well prior to getting a relaxer touch up since I've been using lye relaxers. I know one thing. I will never go back to a no lye relaxer.

Ditto what Allandra said. I switched to lye years ago after coming to this board and will not go back to no lye. I had no more burning than with no lye in fact I did find Dudleys to burn like crazy. My last 3 touch ups have been with ORS lye, again suggestions from this board, and I love everything about it, in fact much gentler than anything I had ever used.

 

[Artemis]

Can someone explain why No-lye is harsher on the hair and Lye is harsher on the scalp. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around why one would be worse on the scalp but not equally as bad on the hair?

Thanks.

The chemical known as "no-lye" is calcium hydroxide, which relaxes the hair in the same manner as "lye" (sodium hydroxide), except that when the relaxing process is finishing up, the chemical does not close the cuticle properly and leaves calcium deposits on the hair, making it extremely difficult for the strand to retain moisture (its own, and any added moisture, like from conditioners). Lye relaxers fully close the cuticle after relaxing and it lies smoother, and doesn't have a hard time retaining moisture. I'm not a chemist, but I think that because manufacturers were trying to appease those w/scalp problems by making the no-lye, they had to compromise the pH of the solution and compromise the hair a bit. Molecules and compounds can be tricky lil' buggers. That's where new solutions like Phyto come in. That relaxer is not made of calcium hydroxide (it's guanidine bicarbonate, I think?? Someone who uses Phyto help me out w/that one! ) So it does what lye relaxers do, but takes out that whole "I can't close the cuticle after I leave" issue that calcium hydroxide relaxers have. And it doesn't leave calcium deposits on the hair shaft.

Does this make sense on an early Sunday morning ??

 

[Sistaslick]

The chemical known as "no-lye" is calcium hydroxide, which relaxes the hair in the same manner as "lye" (sodium hydroxide), except that when the relaxing process is finishing up, the chemical does not close the cuticle properly and leaves calcium deposits on the hair, making it extremely difficult for the strand to retain moisture (its own, and any added moisture, like from conditioners). Lye relaxers fully close the cuticle after relaxing and it lies smoother, and doesn't have a hard time retaining moisture. I'm not a chemist, but I think that because manufacturers were trying to appease those w/scalp problems by making the no-lye, they had to compromise the pH of the solution and compromise the hair a bit. Molecules and compounds can be tricky lil' buggers. That's where new solutions like Phyto come in. That relaxer is not made of calcium hydroxide (it's guanidine bicarbonate, I think?? Someone who uses Phyto help me out w/that one! ) So it does what lye relaxers do, but takes out that whole "I can't close the cuticle after I leave" issue that calcium hydroxide relaxers have. And it doesn't leave calcium deposits on the hair shaft.

Does this make sense on an early Sunday morning ??

But, there isn't a relaxer that can close cuticles. That is not their job. Their only purpose is to lift, swell, and open them. The products after the relaxer do the closing. No lye relaxers also are formulated at lower pHs than lye relaxers to appeal to the consumer market. There is more room for error with them (but obviously any error is gonna be a dangerous one). Jane Q. Public probably should not apply lye relaxers which is why they are considered "professional use only" formulas.

Both no lyes and lyes have downsides. Just because one is easier on the scalp and one is easier on the hair does not mean that the one that is easier on the scalp can't damage the scalp, and the one that is easier on the hair can't damage the hair. You can end up bald and chemically burned with both types. Relaxers by their very nature damage the hair/scalp if they come in contact with it.

The main problem with no-lyes comes from the mineral deposits they leave on the cuticle which can be solved by simply chelating the hair. Those minerals left on the shaft, much like in a hard water situation, can dull and leave the hair ridiculously dry. This is a problem mostly with guanidine hydroxide no lyes, not with Lithium or Potassium hydroxide no-lye ones. Chelating will fix this.

With lyes, the scalp irritation can be solved by heavily basing the scalp prior to the application. I think you should heavily base the scalp regardless of the relaxer formula you use.

They both have solvable issues, so really at the end of the day it depends on how you want to mitigate the problems unique to each one.

 

[madamone]

First of all, thank you Sistaslick for all of your advice. I have been lurking for a while absorbing knowledge from you, Supergirl, Letitia and others and my hair is in it's best shape in years! The protein treatment during the relaxer was an awesome tip for me.

Now, my question: What is Chelating?

 

[Sistaslick]

First of all, thank you Sistaslick for all of your advice. I have been lurking for a while absorbing knowledge from you, Supergirl, Letitia and others and my hair is in it's best shape in years! The protein treatment during the relaxer was an awesome tip for me.

Now, my question: What is Chelating?

Chelating is simply washing the hair with a shampoo that is chemically formulated to bind the metal ions and remove them from the hair shaft. They basically help remove things like calcium, magnesium, chlorine, and copper that can build up on the shaft if you are a swimmer, your water is hard, or you regularly use no-lyes.

eta: They are similar to clarifying shampoos, but on top of regular product build up, they are able to remove mineral deposits.

 

[madamone]

Thank you!

 

[Artemis]

Ah, ok! That makes total sense!! Thanks for the correction
Very true at the bolded!!

But, there isn't a relaxer that can close cuticles. That is not their job. Their only purpose is to lift, swell, and open them. The products after the relaxer do the closing. No lye relaxers also are formulated at lower pHs than lye relaxers to appeal to the consumer market. There is more room for error with them (but obviously any error is gonna be a dangerous one). Jane Q. Public probably should not apply lye relaxers which is why they are considered "professional use only" formulas.

Both no lyes and lyes have downsides. Just because one is easier on the scalp and one is easier on the hair does not mean that the one that is easier on the scalp can't damage the scalp, and the one that is easier on the hair can't damage the hair. You can end up bald and chemically burned with both types. Relaxers by their very nature damage the hair/scalp if they come in contact with it.

The main problem with no-lyes comes from the mineral deposits they leave on the cuticle which can be solved by simply chelating the hair. Those minerals left on the shaft, much like in a hard water situation, can dull and leave the hair ridiculously dry. This is a problem mostly with guanidine hydroxide no lyes, not with Lithium or Potassium hydroxide no-lye ones. Chelating will fix this.

With lyes, the scalp irritation can be solved by heavily basing the scalp prior to the application. I think you should heavily base the scalp regardless of the relaxer formula you use.

They both have solvable issues, so really at the end of the day it depends on how you want to mitigate the problems unique to each one.

 

[SleekandBouncy]

But, there isn't a relaxer that can close cuticles. That is not their job. Their only purpose is to lift, swell, and open them. The products after the relaxer do the closing. No lye relaxers also are formulated at lower pHs than lye relaxers to appeal to the consumer market. There is more room for error with them (but obviously any error is gonna be a dangerous one). Jane Q. Public probably should not apply lye relaxers which is why they are considered "professional use only" formulas.

Both no lyes and lyes have downsides. Just because one is easier on the scalp and one is easier on the hair does not mean that the one that is easier on the scalp can't damage the scalp, and the one that is easier on the hair can't damage the hair. You can end up bald and chemically burned with both types. Relaxers by their very nature damage the hair/scalp if they come in contact with it.

The main problem with no-lyes comes from the mineral deposits they leave on the cuticle which can be solved by simply chelating the hair. Those minerals left on the shaft, much like in a hard water situation, can dull and leave the hair ridiculously dry. This is a problem mostly with guanidine hydroxide no lyes, not with Lithium or Potassium hydroxide no-lye ones. Chelating will fix this.

With lyes, the scalp irritation can be solved by heavily basing the scalp prior to the application. I think you should heavily base the scalp regardless of the relaxer formula you use.

They both have solvable issues, so really at the end of the day it depends on how you want to mitigate the problems unique to each one.

Thanks!
In that case I don't have to use lye to get the same benefits ?
I will be ordering a chelating shampoo ASAP.

I've been really tempted to try Mizani's lye relaxer, but even with basing I'm not sure I'm comfortable using something inherently harsher on my scalp. I'll just resign myself to admire my BF mizani relaxed hair from afar.

Any recs for a no lye that has lithium or potassium hydroxide?

 

[hairmaster]

Remember you don't apply the relaxer to the scalp only to the hair, the directions will tell you to apply 1/4 inch. from the scalp this is to aviod damage to the scalp. You will get some relaxer close to the scalp but not on the scalp around the edges this is how you end up with the edges getting thin we all apply,to get the hair strait at the edges.

 

[Sistaslick]

Thanks!
In that case I don't have to use lye to get the same benefits ?
I will be ordering a chelating shampoo ASAP.

I've been really tempted to try Mizani's lye relaxer, but even with basing I'm not sure I'm comfortable using something inherently harsher on my scalp. I'll just resign myself to admire my BF mizani relaxed hair from afar.

Any recs for a no lye that has lithium or potassium hydroxide?

I use the no-lye sensitive scalp version of Mizani, and I chelate with Kenra the wash after. I don't have any problems with dryness at all. But if you don't take the proper steps afterward, you WILL be battling a lingering dryness. Like tumbleweed. Just like folks with hard water, their vibrant colors will fade, their hair will feel dry, porous, and brittle. Those minerals need to be lifted.

Searching a little online, I found that Hawaiian Silky, Revlon Realistic, Designer Touch, TCB, (and one of the Motions formulas) make no lyes that are lithium/potassium hydroxide. Most no-mix, no lyes are safe and don't leave the stubborn deposits. It's that mix of calcium hydroxide and guanidine carbonate that is the worst culprit. It's also said that the guanidine hydroxide ones swell the hair more than the other hydroxides lye and no lye.

Mizani claims that their no-lye is specially formulated to not leave calcium deposits behind, but I chelate anyway just in case.

 

[Soliel185]

Is the Creamy Aloe shampoo from ORS a chelating shampoo? I'm guessing that neutralizing shampoos aren't chelating shampoos b/c if they were no-lye users wouldn't have an issue with calcium deposits once they neutralized.

TIA