Why is moisture so vital to hair retention... oh wait... it's NOT!!!???!!

[*Frisky*]

For me, too much protein makes my hair dry and hard. When my hair is dry and hard, it snaps (think of a brunch from a tree, when it has moisture in it, it does not snap or break, when it is dry it snaps/breaks)
IMO, moisture increases elasticity which is why my hair does not break/snap so easily if it is well moisturized.
The moisture and protein has to balance and work in harmony.
This is my understandingrotein makes it strong, it puts strength in it, but that also makes it hard and dry, so moisture evens out the protein to make the hair stretch/flexible so that it does not snap I am no scientist............... so this is the best way for me to understand it.

This is pretty much how I look at it too. I just recently over the last few months have figured out that I was using way too much protein. Even if I was moisturizing frequently, my hair still seemed like it was dry. I use to love to co wash my hair several times a week but the protein in the conditioners was just too much..plus the henna treatments. My hair is doing so much better as far as breakage and feeling moisturized.

 

[Mook's hair]

It is important to find the balance. I learned that from experience and read about it in sistaslick's article.

I eat a lot of protein rich foods and I have learned that my hair does not like animal and food protein (topically) Mayo & Egg Treatments are horrible on my hair. ApHogee - Yikes bad idea for me.

But Silk Proteins are a Dream! My hair loves them.
I think I am getting much closer to having that ideal protein and moisture balance.

Many ladies have learned that you cannot lean too far in one direction without causing a serious issue. Too Much moisture or too much protein or too much of the wrong kind of protein.

 

[FluffyRed]

my experience/observation is that my hair needs to be balanced.

I think some folks' hair naturally can hold protein for longer periods of time. I do best with a protein cycle and a moisture cycle at each cowash. I take that to mean that my fine hair does not hold enough protein. I extrapolate that to hypothesize that those with thicker strands may hold protein better.

When I cowash/DC, once my hair feels "hard" from protein the protein DC, I rinse it out and apply the moisture DC. I leave it on until it feels warm and "soft" under the cap.

The tensile strength from shed hairs is amazing at that point... springy and stretchy, but won't snap. A huge contrast to directly after the protein step - strong, but snappy and breaking.

ETA - I have tried every possible moisturizer recommended on this site and nothing makes my hair feel as soft as a cowash. I need the water, protein and moisturizing condish.

 

[charmtreese]

I use to think my hair hated protein until, I found the right protein product for my hair. I do a protein treatment every week followed by a DC and my hair couldn't be happier. It's all about finding what works for your hair.

BTW: the heat and no moisture reggie sounds really close to ateaya's (sp?) regimen and she has gorgeous hair!

 

[gymfreak336]

my experience/observation is that my hair needs to be balanced.

I think some folks' hair naturally can hold protein for longer periods of time. I do best with a protein cycle and a moisture cycle at each cowash. I take that to mean that my fine hair does not hold enough protein. I extrapolate that to hypothesize that those with thicker strands may hold protein better.

When I cowash/DC, once my hair feels "hard" from protein the protein DC, I rinse it out and apply the moisture DC. I leave it on until it feels warm and "soft" under the cap.

The tensile strength from shed hairs is amazing at that point... springy and stretchy, but won't snap. A huge contrast to directly after the protein step - strong, but snappy and breaking.

You are right. It has to do with the abundance of cuticle layers in comparison to us, the fine hair ladies. They have more space to to speak to hold it than we do.

 

[locabouthair]

I extrapolate that to hypothesize that those with thicker strands may hold protein better.

You are right. It has to do with the abundance of cuticle layers in comparison to us, the fine hair ladies. They have more space to to speak to hold it than we do.

my hair is coarse, (which means more cuticle layers right?) and I dont use protein that often because my hair is always SO dry, its like it cant stay moist for long.

I always wished I was a fine haired gal

 

[pisceschica]

Your hair is made up of protein but too much protein (from external sources not naturally occuring) can be bad for it and cause it to feel brittle. I can say that anytime I put a protein treatment on my hair including teh moisture balancing conditioner afterwards my fine hair tangles and feels rough compared to just using a deep conditionier like the ORS packs.

As previously stated moisture is more vital not just to your hair but your whole body including blood, skin, eyes, etc.

 

[Mrs.Green]

hair may not need moisture to "grow" but my head needs the moisture in order to retain my growth. *For me* my hair will grow regardless of what I do to the length of it. Growth is an internal process. Most do not have issues with growth but issues with retention *hence the need to balance moisture and protein

Excellent post Alabama!! My hair is the same.

 

[Mrs.Green]

Actually, you have it backwards. Since hair is made of protein, essential that you intake adequate amounts of it in your diet to become incorpated into the hair as it come out of your scalp. Once its out its out. That is where moisture comes in to make sure that the protein stays pliable and flexible to withstand daily stress.

Excellent post Gym~ I forgot to Multiquote

 

[JustKiya]

I can't even wrap my mind around the OP enough to formulate a reasonable response.

Urm, I don't know about the rest of the world, but my hair needs moisture, and a lot of it, if I want to keep it on my head, and that's the bottom line. Maybe OP's hair is different, and if that's the case, more power (and less moisture) to her, but - I'm highly doubtful that a low moisture routine will leave you with healthy hair - much less long healthy hair.

 

[Mrs.Green]

I swear, everytime I read your posts I feel like I just left class. Luv u !!

Isn't that the truth!!

Gym you have a teaching affect to posting. I always get excited to see you in a thread to hear/read what you have to say

 

[gymfreak336]

my hair is coarse, (which means more cuticle layers right?) and I dont use protein that often because my hair is always SO dry, its like it cant stay moist for long.

I always wished I was a fine haired gal

Yep, usually coarser hair has more cuticle layers. Loca, I think your porosity is low, I think your cuticle is tight.

 

[Solitude]

You're forgetting that hair also naturally HAS WATER AND MOISTURE IN IT AS WELL.

I'm sure you know that out bodies are composed mostly of water. I've read that hair is 60% water.

To ONLY use protein is asking for trouble, overload makes the hair too brittle... which is why you wouldn't do something stupid like doing a hard aphogee treatment every week, even if you add moisture or not. At least I hope not


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



All protein is not the same. It's not like we can throw some protein on our hair and everything is as good as new.

I'm sure if there was some way to put real, human keratin back into the hair and repair it as good as new, EVERYONE'S hair would respond well because it would just be truly repairing the hair on a molecular level.

Protein treatments don't work that way. It's not truly repairing your hair, it temporarily strengthens and COATS the hair. It is NOT truly getting in there and repairing the hair to what it was before any damage.

Putting foreign proteins in someone's hair is not something that I would think would help every single person. You're not truly repairing anything, it's not like someone has particle sized keratin and is arranging them just like it should be inside the hair and making it as good as new... it's more of a bandage. It will not get into the cortex and magically align itself with the proteins inside your hair.

In my opinion, some people's hair doesn't like or need extra (foreign) proteins. This isn't a one size fits all kind of thing.



I think you need to put a little more thought into your theories, no offense. It seems as if you zero into ONE area or fact, then ignore everything else.

Um, this is wrong. Hair is approximately 91% protein. No offense, but before telling OP to put more thought into her theory, you may want to put some more research in before you post. It is a very basic scientific fact that hair is protein (keratin). It is not 60% water.

I don't doubt that you are right, I did a quick search for how much water is in hair and the site I saw said 60%.

The 60% seemed off to me, however I didn't have any other source at the time, which is why I stated it the way I did. I didn't say hair is 60% water, I said that I read that it is. Made sure to put that in there since I wasn't so sure myself...

but the point that I was trying to make regardless of the percentages is that water IS INDEED in hair and makes a lot of difference in the health of one's hair.

Can you argue with that?

I also don't find all of the rest of my posting somehow invalid because the percentage of water in the hair was wrong.

Um...I'm in law school. I can argue with ANYTHING.

However, when I post on this board, my purpose is not to start "arguments." I was simply trying to inform any one who happened to be reading through and saw that statistic.

***deleted last paragraph*** not even relevant to the convo.

 

[anon123]

I don't know that my hair needs constant moisture, per se. Rather, it needs something to make it supple and pliable and protein alone can't do that. I'd say my hair needs conditioner or lubricant or something, thought not actual water all the time.

 

[amara11]

but the point that I was trying to make regardless of the percentages is that water IS INDEED in hair and makes a lot of difference in the health of one's hair.
Can you argue with that?

Um...I'm in law school. I can argue with ANYTHING.
However, when I post on this board, my purpose is not to start "arguments." I was simply trying to inform any one who happened to be reading through and saw that statistic.

***deleted last paragraph*** not even relevant to the convo.

I'm sorry, this is OT but that just made me crack up out loud!!!!

(I'm the same way but especially when it comes to science/physiology)

 

[Neith]

Um...I'm in law school. I can argue with ANYTHING.

However, when I post on this board, my purpose is not to start "arguments." I was simply trying to inform any one who happened to be reading through and saw that statistic.

***deleted last paragraph*** not even relevant to the convo.

I don't post with the intention to start arguments either... but I will debate when I'm in the mood.

I'm big enough to admit I was wrong. I'm not perfect and I sure as hell don't go do heavy research for every (reply) posting unless I'm at home/have the time. Bad me for using google. *slaps my mouse hand*

However, I stand behind what I said, excluding the 60% water bit. Thanks for informing me and others that it's 91%.

 

[Noir]

I know you were being sarcastic/funny, but ACTUALLY as opposed to a frequent heat/ no moisture challenge, a frequent protein/ frequent heat challenge might just work.

Err yea I believe that it probably would I think the point that *most* were trying to make was that a balance of protein and MOISTURE is beneficial for healthy hair.. not just for the look and feel of the hair which the OP suggested.

One of the reasons why so many ladies are afraid of heat is probably too much moisture & having their hair always in a weakened state (wet). Like so many things on this board, people get a mob mentality when it comes to moisture. That is all.

Again I am not disagreeing. My hair can't thrive without protein.. I lub me some eggs and aphogee.

So I hope that your not implying that I am apart of this mob mentality when it come to moisture. Ain't that serious to me

 

[thinkpinkprincess]

Actually, you have it backwards. Since hair is made of protein, essential that you intake adequate amounts of it in your diet to become incorpated into the hair as it come out of your scalp. Once its out its out. That is where moisture comes in to make sure that the protein stays pliable and flexible to withstand daily stress.

Oh, and another thing, Gym... if protein is only vital when ingested orally, then what would explain the great succes of Mega Tek? Isn't it protein based? And yet, so many women have had incredible results with it! In fact, now that I think of it, I'm not sure I ever heard of ANY effective growth aids being heavily moisture based...

 

[thinkpinkprincess]

haven't gotten to read all of the posts yet but I will and then share my thoughts

 

[thinkpinkprincess]

You're forgetting that hair also naturally HAS WATER AND MOISTURE IN IT AS WELL.

I'm sure you know that out bodies are composed mostly of water. I've read that hair is 60% water.

To ONLY use protein is asking for trouble, overload makes the hair too brittle... which is why you wouldn't do something stupid like doing a hard aphogee treatment every week, even if you add moisture or not. At least I hope not


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



All protein is not the same. It's not like we can throw some protein on our hair and everything is as good as new.

I'm sure if there was some way to put real, human keratin back into the hair and repair it as good as new, EVERYONE'S hair would respond well because it would just be truly repairing the hair on a molecular level.

Protein treatments don't work that way. It's not truly repairing your hair, it temporarily strengthens and COATS the hair. It is NOT truly getting in there and repairing the hair to what it was before any damage.

Putting foreign proteins in someone's hair is not something that I would think would help every single person. You're not truly repairing anything, it's not like someone has particle sized keratin and is arranging them just like it should be inside the hair and making it as good as new... it's more of a bandage. It will not get into the cortex and magically align itself with the proteins inside your hair.

In my opinion, some people's hair doesn't like or need extra (foreign) proteins. This isn't a one size fits all kind of thing.



I think you need to put a little more thought into your theories, no offense. It seems as if you zero into ONE area or fact, then ignore everything else.

Of course I wouldn't use a hard protein treatment every week.... One of the points I was hoping to be able to express is that not all protein is the same... so just like you are inferring that I can't make a blanket statement that all protein is the same, on the flip side of that, there is no way to say that all proteins, or proteins in general, have a detrimental affect on the hair versus a beneficial one since some proteins are less hard core than others....

And I'm not offended bc I do put thought into my theories and I really don't have time to dissect every single point that every one makes and respond to it

 

[thinkpinkprincess]

I use to think my hair hated protein until, I found the right protein product for my hair. I do a protein treatment every week followed by a DC and my hair couldn't be happier. It's all about finding what works for your hair.

BTW: the heat and no moisture reggie sounds really close to ateaya's (sp?) regimen and she has gorgeous hair!

Funny you mention her because I thought about her just a little while ago and added the link to her video in the thread I started about heat use!

 

[Neith]

Of course I wouldn't use a hard protein treatment every week.... One of the points I was hoping to be able to express is that not all protein is the same... so just like you are inferring that I can't make a blanket statement that all protein is the same, on the flip side of that, there is no way to say that all proteins, or proteins in general, have a detrimental affect on the hair versus a beneficial one since some proteins are less hard core than others....

And I'm not offended bc I do put thought into my theories and I really don't have time to dissect every single point that every one makes and respond to it

I never said that all proteins are the same, just that I don't believe they are helpful to everyone regardless of the type/potency. For many, maybe even most proteins do help hair, but it's also VERY important imo to keep the hair's moisture level up.

I truly wasn't trying to offend. Although you weren't offended, I guess others may have gotten offended for you, lol. When I say that, I mean it... it wasn't a snide remark. I just found both of your postings about your theories today kinda took one idea and ran away with it without looking at the whole picture (imo), but it's not personal. I just have a problem with being too blunt sometimes

 

[thinkpinkprincess]

I don't know that my hair needs constant moisture, per se. Rather, it needs something to make it supple and pliable and protein alone can't do that. I'd say my hair needs conditioner or lubricant or something, thought not actual water all the time.

exactly my thoughts! oils can easily take the place of water based solutions, at least in MY experience, to detangle the hair, and also would allow the hair to be lubricated, and protected

If your hair is

strong

protected

detangled/easy to comb through

then what else do you really need? at least from a strictly - need based standpoint

 

[BrooklynSouth]

exactly my thoughts! oils can easily take the place of water based solutions, at least in MY experience, to detangle the hair, and also would allow the hair to be lubricated, and protected

If your hair is

strong

protected

detangled/easy to comb through

then what else do you really need? at least from a strictly - need based standpoint

Exactly what LHCF is all about; should the technique work for you then do it. I need water based products, water and more water sealed by oil.

 

[thinkpinkprincess]

I never said that all proteins are the same, just that I don't believe they are helpful to everyone regardless of the type/potency. For many, maybe even most proteins do help hair, but it's also VERY important imo to keep the hair's moisture level up.

I truly wasn't trying to offend. Although you weren't offended, I guess others may have gotten offended for you, lol. When I say that, I mean it... it wasn't a snide remark. I just found both of your postings about your theories today kinda took one idea and ran away with it without looking at the whole picture (imo), but it's not personal. I just have a problem with being too blunt sometimes

It's all good! I know that it's easy for words ( and especially the tone and intentions behind them) to get misconstrued over the internet! I do believe that too much of a good thing like protein can be a bad thing just like anything else in life, I guess I just feel like protein gets way too much of a bad rap sometimes and perhaps at times moisture is OVER emphasized, but then again, each person's hair is different I suppose....

 

[ebonylocs]

One of the reasons why so many ladies are afraid of heat is probably too much moisture & having their hair always in a weakened state (wet). Like so many things on this board, people get a mob mentality when it comes to moisture. That is all.

Umm. I think maybe you grabbed the wrong end of the stick when you joined the board, or jumped on the wrong bandwagon. Because since I came on this board in 2005 one of the key things that is repeated on a daily basis is the PROTEIN and MOISTURE Balance. In fact, I started to use Aphogee only because of this board, and it is the only recommendation I've given to my mom and sis when they had breakage (of course, telling them to be careful how they use it, and to *balance* it with moisture). In every regimen people post, they always list their protein conditioner AND their moisturising conditioner, or how else they achieve both effects. Just like you overdid the moisture, I have seen several threads from people who grabbed the other end of the stick and overdid the protein, and in EITHER case, when members study a regimen, they always try to pull the pendulum back. Sooo... shrug, this and part of your other post kind of mistify me...

Maybe moisture is mentioned more often because it is usually done daily, while a protein treatment is done weekly or fortnightly or monthly, but there is usually no doubt that the latter is essential.

I've seen people say a lot of added protein don't suit *their* hair, but I've never seen people say that protein isn't necessary, the way TPP is suggesting that moisture might not be (so by the way, I actually don't think you agree with her).

Aren't there people that don't wash their hair for longer than 2 months?

I think there are people with tight cuticles, thick strands, low porosity, than can hold on to moisture and protein for a long time without replenishing it. If you look around the board, these are the people who can go a long time without washing or wetting, (but also suffer no ill effects if they, for example, wet bun everyday), who can use heat regularly, who can go a long time without detangling or don't get tangles, etc. Just my theory. I might be wrong.

my experience/observation is that my hair needs to be balanced.

I think some folks' hair naturally can hold protein for longer periods of time. I do best with a protein cycle and a moisture cycle at each cowash. I take that to mean that my fine hair does not hold enough protein. I extrapolate that to hypothesize that those with thicker strands may hold protein better.

I agree. My thin, porous strands mean I seem to be able to do protein treatments more often than many people, even when I was natural...

In fact, now that I think of it, I'm not sure I ever heard of ANY effective growth aids being heavily moisture based...

Now that is just a straw man. Hasn't everyone said that it's mainly protein that's essential for growth? (Although of course water is necessary to the extent that it is necessary for all physiological processes).

I really don't have time to dissect every single point that every one makes and respond to it

Well I hope you'll at least respond to the post that directly answered your question and gave a scientific reason why moisture is necessary, i.e. keratin, collagen and elastin interact with water to form molecules with elastic properties that can rebound after stress.

 

[thinkpinkprincess]

And I'm definitely not saying that moisture is a BAD thing.... I'm just saying that perhaps, and again it's just a theory, not neccessarily fact, that when it comes down to the BARE ESSENTIALS of hair retention, water based moisture on the hair shaft that has already come out of the scalp may not be essential... and maybe some of you are taking this too literally because I'm not talking about wtaer needed to wash/rinse/deep condition the hair, I'm primarily talking about water - based and humectant - heavy sprays, leave - ins, moisturizers, etc

 

[thinkpinkprincess]

Umm. I think maybe you grabbed the wrong end of the stick when you joined the board, or jumped on the wrong bandwagon. Because since I came on this board in 2005 one of the key things that is repeated on a daily basis is the PROTEIN and MOISTURE Balance. In fact, I started to use Aphogee only because of this board, and it is the only recommendation I've given to my mom and sis when they had breakage (of course, telling them to be careful how they use it, and to *balance* it with moisture). In every regimen people post, they always list their protein conditioner AND their moisturising conditioner, or how else they achieve both effects. Just like you overdid the moisture, I have seen several threads from people who grabbed the other end of the stick and overdid the protein, and in EITHER case, when members study a regimen, they always try to pull the pendulum back. Sooo... shrug, this and part of your other post kind of mistify me...

I've seen people say a lot of added protein don't suit *their* hair, but I've never seen people say that protein isn't necessary, the way TPP is suggesting that moisture might not be (so by the way, I actually don't think you agree with her).


I think there are people with tight cuticles, thick strands, low porosity, than can hold on to moisture and protein for a long time without replenishing it. If you look around the board, these are the people who can go a long time without washing or wetting, (but also suffer no ill effects if they, for example, wet bun everyday), who can use heat regularly, who can go a long time without detangling or don't get tangles, etc. Just my theory. I might be wrong.

I agree. My thin, porous strands mean I seem to be able to do protein treatments more often than many people, even when I was natural...

Now that is just a straw man. Hasn't everyone said that it's mainly protein that's essential for growth? (Although of course water is necessary to the extent that it is necessary for all physiological processes).


Well I hope you'll at least respond to the post that directly answered your question and gave a scientific reason why moisture is necessary, i.e. keratin, collagen and elastin interact with water to form molecules with elastic properties that can rebound after stress.

I realize this... and this has the chance to occur when wet hair is dampened by water and is being conditioned by the protein treatment...

 

[ebonylocs]

I realize this... and this has the chance to occur when wet hair is dampened by water and is being conditioned by the protein treatment...

IME that is not enough. If I was to use only a protein treatment on wet hair, my hair would be super crispy, and I wouldn't be able to get a comb through it afterwards. I need a humectant. *But not everyone might.* It might depend on the type of hair you have. For some people, e.g. with porous hair, that moisture they got from the deep condition dries out pretty fast, so they might have to rehumectify daily to plump up those elastic molecules again.

exactly my thoughts! oils can easily take the place of water based solutions, at least in MY experience, to detangle the hair, and also would allow the hair to be lubricated, and protected

If your hair is

strong

protected

detangled/easy to comb through

then what else do you really need? at least from a strictly - need based standpoint

But the question is, *what* makes your hair strong, protected and detangled / easy to comb through? For some it's more protein, for some it's more moisture, for some it's more oil, but we all probably need a bit of all. You just have to go with what works for you.

 

[FluffyRed]

And I'm definitely not saying that moisture is a BAD thing.... I'm just saying that perhaps, and again it's just a theory, not neccessarily fact, that when it comes down to the BARE ESSENTIALS of hair retention, water based moisture on the hair shaft that has already come out of the scalp may not be essential... and maybe some of you are taking this too literally because I'm not talking about wtaer needed to wash/rinse/deep condition the hair, I'm primarily talking about water - based and humectant - heavy sprays, leave - ins, moisturizers, etc

If it works for you, do it. It absolutely will not work for me. My hair is in best shape after a cowash with water. I need a moisture/protein balanced DC cowash with water every three days. My hair starts snapping off after 3 days. So moisture is vital. As is protein.

No product can replicate that.

You are not going to find a consensus here, because we all have different hair and hair needs. Relaxed, natural, texlaxed, 3a, 4z, fine, coarse...

And there is no need to sit here talking about it. If you have a theory, practice it on your head and share results.

If no water works for you, then do you. Homeless people never wash and they can have some tailbone length dreads. Works for them. Not for me.